What if Karl Marx had died in June of 1844?

[Ramo]

Maybe the radical left wouldn't have split up at the First Internationale, and state socialists would've been open to more revolutionary (i.e. aimed at economic emancipation instead of political conquest, like syndicalism) techniques, thus leading to current society dominated more by socialism than the welfare state.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Fez
where did you get that from? Pravda?

Do you have anything against Pravda? BTW, nowadays, it's a decent opposition mouthpiece.

Actually 40 million people wouldn't of died under Stalin. And the world would be a better place right now without Marx, who was a raving lunatic.

Actually, I believe, Russia would indeed be better off without Marx. But what I said, I meant it about the West.

40 million!? And the number is still growing... You read too much anti-Pravda.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Do you have anything against Pravda? BTW, nowadays, it's a decent opposition mouthpiece.

Pravda is like reading the National Enquirer? You know about them?

Actually, I believe, Russia would indeed be better off without Marx. But what I said, I meant it about the West.

Marx had an effect on western bloc countries? I thought they were capitalist?

40 million!? And the number is still growing... You read too much anti-Pravda.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Fez
Pravda is like reading the National Enquirer? You know about them?

Nah, Pravda is more red than yellow.

But these two colors peacefully coexist in the Spanish flag...

Marx had an effect on western bloc countries? I thought they were capitalist?

Of course he had. Marx and the mere existence of the Soviet Union had a huge impact on the state of social programs in the West.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Nah, Pravda is more red than yellow.

But these two colors peacefully coexist in the Spanish flag...

Red and Intense Yellow. By the way those have been colors of the Spanish flag long before communism existed. And Spanish red is like red wine.. it isn't related to commies.

Of course he had. Marx and the mere existence of the Soviet Union had a huge impact on the state of social programs in the West.

Marx led Russia to what it is today. A corrupt, dictatorship that calls itself a democracy.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Fez
Marx led Russia to what it is today.

As I said, Russia would indeed be better off without Marx. But the West has largely benefited from Marx.

A corrupt, dictatorship that calls itself a democracy.

Corrupt, yes, but not a dictatorship. Just please give Russia some credit for its accomplishments during the last 10 years. Be more generous!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Corrupt, yes, but not a dictatorship. Just please give Russia some credit for its accomplishments during the last 10 years. Be more generous!

Okay I admit. I can laugh at Boris Yeltsin! Wait.. is that an accomplishment?

And Putin just looks scary for some odd reason.. ex-KGB right? He scares me...

At least the US and Russia have this oil deal signed.. that I give a thumbs up for. Lessen US dependence on middle eastern sources.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Fez
Okay I admit. I can laugh at Boris Yeltsin! Wait.. is that an accomplishment?

That you can laugh at him is not an accomplishment. You (I mean the Westerners) could always laugh at him. But that Russians inside Russia can laugh at him is an accomplishment.

It's like an old Soviet joke. A Russian and an American argue about human rights. The American says: "Look, I can just go in front of the White House and say that Reagan is a fool. Can you do this?". The Russian replies: "Of course! I can always go to the Red Square and say that Reagan is a fool."

And Putin just looks scary for some odd reason.. ex-KGB right? He scares me...

Don't be so scared. The man doesn't even have guts to fire the high-ranking botchers once and for all. He simply moves them from place to place.

At least the US and Russia have this oil deal signed.. that I give a thumbs up for. Lessen US dependence on middle eastern sources.

Oil deals is good, but high-tech deals would be even better.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


That you can laugh at him is not an accomplishment. You (I mean the Westerners) could always laugh at him. But that Russians inside Russia can laugh at him is an accomplishment.

Good point. But is Yeltsin an accomplishment to have as a leader?

It's like an old Soviet joke. A Russian and an American argue about human rights. The American says: "Look, I can just go in front of the White House and say that Reagan is a fool. Can you do this?". The Russian replies: "Of course! I can always go to the Red Square and say that Reagan is a fool."

You Russians and your damn jokes!

Don't be so scared. The man doesn't even have guts to fire the high-ranking botchers once and for all. He simply moves them from place to place.

Well how is handling Chechnya?

Oil deals is good, but high-tech deals would be even better.

Well... Russia has a lot of oil.

High tech deals... well.. the high tech market isn't exactly doing so well as of late. Expansion to other markets would be feasible...

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Fez
Good point. But is Yeltsin an accomplishment to have as a leader?

To a certain extent, yes. He was a drunk. He made a lot of mistakes. But yet he had a vision and courage for a peaceful dissolution of the Soviet Union (compare with Yugoslavia!) and for the introduction of market and democratic reforms.

Well how is handling Chechnya?

Firmly, against all the odds. Unfortunately he is not as firm when it comes to firing bastards in the elite.

[Kropotkin]

The absence of Marx's materialism and dialetics would probably have quite an impact on the development on most socialist and social democratic development. Probably for the better.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by The Templar
I know some of the more "rugged individualist" types won't like this, but they are wrong. So here it goes:

Someone else would have come up with a similar theory. Marxism was "in the air" or just part of the zeitgiest. People do not just pull ideas out of thin air. Moreover, it takes the surrounding society to pick up on these ideas. Someone would have come up a similar theory, and the same people would have likely picked up on it.

I think Marx would agree

This is spot on. If you look at the time, Marx was not the only person to espouse this concept of theory, it would have been thought of by someone else and probably not long after. And probably by Engels

[Provost Harrison]

...or did they both get killed in a head-on horse and carriage accident?

[OliverFA]

Some other intelectual would have taken his place and everything would have been more or less the same. After all he was one more of these sons of rich people who didn't know anything about working himself.

But... hey! Who sais that Marx wasn't benefical for the world? Now we have historical examples of why the comunism doesn't work. And everything thanks to Marx and his friends!

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Don't be so scared. The man doesn't even have guts to fire the high-ranking botchers once and for all. He simply moves them from place to place.

Well, I don't agree with that. I think that Putin has a very firm will and determination. But that's exactly why he is there. The old system didn't dissapear completely one day, there are a lot of reminiscences there who must be fought, and they need a strong man to do that. You cannot expect to change a full country (a very big country) that has been under all that propaganda and totalitarian system almost for a century so easily. Can you? It won't happen over night. It will take its time. I think that Russia is on the good way, but things take time. In Spain we say "dress me slow that I'm in a hurry" or "write slow and with good letter". If Russia continues with the reforms started the last years while correcting some of the errors made things will improve. And sooner than most people think.