four more years! four more years!

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sandman


Of course they favour what he's doing. If I was convinced that Saddam had enough anthrax to kill the entire world three times over, or that chemical weapons posed a significant danger, or that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis, or that 9/11 couldn't have been prevented, I'd be behind Bush too.

That's a pretty limited thought pattern on choosing a leader. In addition, most Americans that I know definately know where the hijackers came from. WMD isn't settled yet (6 month rule). 9/11 could not have been prevented by the policies of any administration that has been in place in my lifetime. Surely you are not naive enough to blame Bush for 9/11 are you?

[Al B. Sure!]

why is it that the 'stupid idiot' Bush is always so skilled at mass conspiracies?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sava
We shouldn't give money to terrorists! WTF ARE YOU SMOKING! If anything, we should withdraw the support we give to Saudi Arabia... I would have to examine the relationship between Israel and the US further before commenting on whether or not we should give more, less, or no funding to them. But I'm against giving any money to those terror-supporting Arab states. **** them!

Sava, You misunderstand me. Under present conditions you could not be more right. Any economic aid to these countries would have to come at the price of verifiable terrorist disarmament, statements and commitments against terrorism as a weapon, acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist, and a treaty ending all hostile action against Israel. If they buy into that, then I'm all for pumping in th $$. Until then, Israel must and should be supported.

[Sava]

why is it that the 'stupid idiot' Bush is always so skilled at mass conspiracies?

He isn't the puppet master... there are armies of right-wing think tanks that are creating Bush's policies. American Enterprise Institute, PNAC, Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute are just a few I can name off the top of my head.

PLato: Hah, maybe I did misunderstand you. But still, even if those people told us they were working towards disarming terrorists, etc, I doubt I would trust them farther than I could throw them.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Azazel
What does that have to do with the Israeli arms industry? Israeli arms industry would LOVE it to stop, since we'd make our own airplanes, and our own rifles, and they'd be good ones too. (esp. the rifles. )


You know that one of the reasons for the military help to Israel was to prevent the creation of a competing aircraft to the US industries. Because everytime the US or someone else has denied israel something, it just got it for itself by other means. The reason to Israel's nukes is the US denial of it's nuclear umbrella, for example.

Now I don't think that the US assistance is a bad thing, but it is a mixed blessing.

I agree with the final statement. It is a mixed blessing for you guys. But the good far far out weighs the bad. The effort that Israel doesn't put into some industry is well applied somewhere else. There is only so much to go around and a $3 billion dollar shot in the arm is significant.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Plato:

i dont see how that would be infringment though... they'd be getting money... and their enemy, Israel will be getting less money...

but i guess this is one of those solutions that seem so simple and would seem to work so great but would only fail utterly.

They would see it as infringement due to the conditions you placed on the money in your original post.

[Az]

Originally posted by PLATO1003


I agree with the final statement. It is a mixed blessing for you guys. But the good far far out weighs the bad. The effort that Israel doesn't put into some industry is well applied somewhere else. There is only so much to go around and a $3 billion dollar shot in the arm is significant.

Personally, I think it's like large oil reserves. It's geo-political crack, we're the junkie, and you're the dealer.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sava
PLato: Hah, maybe I did misunderstand you. But still, even if those people told us they were working towards disarming terrorists, etc, I doubt I would trust them farther than I could throw them.

Hence the bolding of the word verifiable .

To be truly verifiable would mean to have some type of inspection apparatus on the ground. With the overwhelming success ( ) of this in Iraq, I can't see it as being acceptable to eithier side however. If a good system could be put in place to ensure the end of terrorist organizations, then economic aid shoul help these countries so that they will not again be breeding grounds for terrorist in the future.

[Sava]

Personally, I think it's like large oil reserves. It's geo-political crack, we're the junkie, and you're the dealer.

I agree. That is America's problems with all of it's "wars" (war on drugs, terrorism, etc). America is incapable of decreasing demand for the substances it craves (oil, cocaine, economic imperialism) so it tries to find solutions in order for them to have their cake and eat it to. Unfortunately, US officials never want to admit the solutions would require sacrifice.

[Solly]

He isn't the puppet master... there are armies of right-wing think tanks that are creating Bush's policies. American Enterprise Institute, PNAC, Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute are just a few I can name off the top of my head.

Why do these intelligent orgsanisations want someone stupid acting above them?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Azazel


Personally, I think it's like large oil reserves. It's geo-political crack, we're the junkie, and you're the dealer.

I just don't know where to start with that one. I...I...

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Boddington's


Why do these intelligent orgsanisations want someone stupid acting above them?

They don't. Sava just has to hate Bush vehemently so that he can continue to deny his growing conservatism.

[Az]

Originally posted by PLATO1003




I just don't know where to start with that one. I...I...

You've bought the obedience of one of earth's most volatile and crucial regions' strongest player, for 3 Billion dollars a year. this is a very rare catch. In comparison, your war against a much weaker player, Saddam's failing Iraq, is about to cost you Tens of Billions of dollars, and force your Military and Foreign Policy thinkers be extremely talanted at managing that conflict.

[PLATO]

Azazel, I wasn't disagreeing. I just thought that was the most hilarious way I've ever seen it put.

It's not like Israel doesn't get a lot out of the relationship as well though.

[Sandman]

That's a pretty limited thought pattern on choosing a leader. In addition, most Americans that I know definately know where the hijackers came from. WMD isn't settled yet (6 month rule). 9/11 could not have been prevented by the policies of any administration that has been in place in my lifetime. Surely you are not naive enough to blame Bush for 9/11 are you?

It's only a few examples of the Bush administration's attempts to spread fear and confusion. Orange alerts, duct tape, Golden Gate Bridge attacks, it's ongoing. In fact, we're due for another terrorist 'alert' quite soon.

Governments have a duty to protect the lives of their citizens. The American government failed to do this, and then started pleading that 9/11 could not have been avoided. I believe it could have been avoided, since there was ample intelligence pointing to the dangers, not least, the men who wanted to learn how to fly a jumbo jet, but not how to land it. There should have been an inquiry immediately into what went wrong on with the intelligence and security services. An inquiry was launched the very day after the Titanic sank, the same should have been true for 9/11.