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  • #76
    Originally posted by HershOstropoler
    There is an open debate here about the Israel-palestinian conflict. What people who link antisemitism and criticism if Israel want is a change to a rabid pro-Israel bias. Won't happen. Better scrap the idea, as it poisons every argument about antisemitism.
    hi ,

    who wants it to be turned into a pro israel ( biased or not ) debate , example please , .......

    and that is not the issue neither , the topic is about france and more the less the rise of anti semitism in europe , .....

    have a nice day
    - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
    - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
    WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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    • #77
      "and that is not the issue neither , the topic is about france and more the less the rise of anti semitism in europe"

      Exactly. So keep the faulty claims of anti-Israel biasses out of it.
      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

      Comment

      • #78
        Originally posted by HershOstropoler
        "and that is not the issue neither , the topic is about france and more the less the rise of anti semitism in europe"

        Exactly. So keep the faulty claims of anti-Israel biasses out of it.
        hi ,

        and where are those " faulty claims ", ..... and anti israel biasses , where are they , .....

        have a nice day
        - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
        - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
        WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

        Comment

        • #79
          "and where are those " faulty claims ", ..... and anti israel biasses , where are they"

          Uhm... yes, where are the anti-Israel biasses? And if they don't exist, you have your "faulty claim" in "will they make the connection between the bias against Israel in Europe".
          “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

          Comment

          • #80
            I have never really understood why Europe has historically had such high anti-semitism. It is not just the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This has been going on before the current state of Israel was founded. What is the historical basis for this? It just doesn't seem to make sense.
            "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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            • #81
              Antisemitism goes back about 2000 years, and has various roots. It subsided during enlightenment, but came back with a vengeance during the age of nationalism. It is, unfortunately, part of european heritage. By which it also part of american heritage, don't play squeaky clean.
              “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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              • #82
                Btw, did anyone get the latest "French jews and Far-right cooperate" report....
                urgh.NSFW

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                  Antisemitism goes back about 2000 years, and has various roots. It subsided during enlightenment, but came back with a vengeance during the age of nationalism. It is, unfortunately, part of european heritage. By which it also part of american heritage, don't play squeaky clean.
                  Didn't mean to seem like I was playing sqeaky clean. Rather I am questioning the root source of anti-semetic feelings in Europe. While I agree that it has a long history, I still do not know why. Anybody?
                  "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                  Comment

                  • #84
                    Well, for one, the killed Jesus.... or at least, that was accepted Church policy for a while.

                    Certainly the relation of Christianity to judaism was one key factor, probalby the key factor. Jews were the only non-Christian community that lived in Christian areas of Europe for centuries, and were ostracized.
                    If you don't like reality, change it! me
                    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                    • #85
                      "Didn't mean to seem like I was playing sqeaky clean."

                      Sorry.

                      "While I agree that it has a long history, I still do not know why. Anybody?"

                      Jews did not integrate into the Romans' imperial cult and were seen as suspicious, especially after several large scale revolts in Judea and the Levante in the 1st and 2nd century. That went seamlessly into christian antisemitism from the 4th century on. The Franks were very tolerant, but that caused dissent among more radical clerics. The religious hysteria surrounding the crusades reignited antisemitism, and it stayed around until the 18th century. At the time, the idea of integrating jews into the new civil society took hold. That was not an all-out solution, with ia jewish resistance against losing the special legal status, but it worked until the 19th century.

                      Then, nationalist movements, political catholicism and some strains on the left found jews, especially those that had profitted from integrating into the civil society, as old new scapegoats. That new antisemitism culminated into the holocaust.

                      Antisemitism was still cultivated in some circles after WWII, but the main protagonists today are the rightwing extremists and radical muslim-arab groups. It is interesting that other muslim groups (turks, pakistanis etc) show very little inclination towards antisemitic violence.
                      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                      Comment

                      • #86
                        Okay that makes sense. Thanks GePap and Hersh. It seems that religious intolerence can be traced to many evils. I wonder why Europe does not exhibit the same tendencies toward Muslims. They have, after all, been part of the European community for centuries.
                        "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                        Comment

                        • #87
                          Actually, Muslims are a relatively new addition. The first significant Muslim community to fall under Christian political control in Europe was quickly wipped out in Spain. Next came Christian rule over Muslims in the Balkans, and as we see, that was not a very peacefull relation at all. Significant Islamic immigration into Europe happened only after WW2, so it is only 50 years old at best.

                          Muslims in Christian Europe were a rarity until then, so I do;t view the things as analogous.
                          Last edited by GePap; July 18, 2003, 11:21.
                          If you don't like reality, change it! me
                          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                          Comment

                          • #88
                            Originally posted by PLATO1003
                            I wonder why Europe does not exhibit the same tendencies toward Muslims.
                            Muslims face a lot of resentment (and a much broader based one).
                            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                            Comment

                            • #89
                              Originally posted by GePap
                              Actually, Muslims are a relatively new addition. The first significant Muslim community to fall under Christian political control in Europe was quickly wipped out in Spain. Next came Christian rule over Muslims in the Balkans, and as we see, that was not a very peacefull relation at all. Significant Islamic immigration into Europe happened only after WW2, so it is only 50 years old at best.

                              Muslims in Christian Europe were a rarity until then, so I do;t view the things as analogous.
                              I was under the impression that there was a significat Muslim presence in Eastern Europe since the 1500's. It does seem that the pace of migration has picked up in the last fifty years or so though.

                              Muslims face a lot of resentment (and a much broader based one).
                              This does not get anywhere near the press over here that anti-semetic acts do. In many ways our media is portraying that Muslim feelings are driving policy in much of "old" Europe right now.
                              "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                              Comment

                              • #90
                                "This does not get anywhere near the press over here that anti-semetic acts do."

                                Well as I said, your media do a lot of very selective reporting, to put it nicely.

                                "In many ways our media is portraying that Muslim feelings are driving policy in much of "old" Europe right now."

                                I know, but it is total nonsense. It has some merit for France, where maybe 5 % of the electorate are muslim. On the other hand, the FN is driven to a good extent by anti-muslim or anti-arab sentiments.

                                It is rubbish for Germany, where if IIRC only 1.5 % of the electorate is muslim.
                                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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