Progressives of the World Unite!

[C0ckney]

this is the same thabo mbeki who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS right...?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by C0ckney
this is the same thabo mbeki who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS right...?

Do you know that William Shockley, the Nobel Prize Laureate, believed that blacks are dumber than whites?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by C0ckney
this is the same thabo mbeki who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS right...?

Yep, but whoever wrote the op/ed for him did an interesting job.

[Kidlicious]

The point is that the market can't use Africa or it would be. The market has been tried repeatedly and failed repeatedly. True, they need better leadership, but if the world really showed that they were making the necessary effort to help Africa that leadership would come. There is just too much despair in Africa.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sandman
Expecting Third World villagers to have low birth rates is like expecting Westerners to forgo economic growth. Not going to happen.

The Germans, Scandinavians, and other progressive Euro-countries have been forgoing economic growth for years. The funny part is they can't figure out why.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The point is that the market can't use Africa or it would be. The market has been tried repeatedly and failed repeatedly. True, they need better leadership, but if the world really showed that they were making the necessary effort to help Africa that leadership would come. There is just too much despair in Africa.

The market hasn't failed. What's happened is that wars, kleptocrates, and lawlessness has chased away anyone who wants to invest in most African countries. Go there and see first hand then come back and tell us what you saw.

BTW Botswana, South Africa, Ghana, and the souther part of Nigeria have been growing steadally. Is it any wonder that with democracy, good governence, and the rule of law their economies picked up?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The Germans, Scandinavians, and other progressive Euro-countries have been forgoing economic growth for years. The funny part is they can't figure out why.

They have unbankable citizens there too. There is no capacity in the world economy to employ all the resources. Since the employment cost is highest there they suffer from unemployment. If they lower their employment cost that unemployment will show up somewhere else.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The market hasn't failed. What's happened is that wars, kleptocrates, and lawlessness has chased away anyone who wants to invest in most African countries. Go there and see first hand then come back and tell us what you saw.

BTW Botswana, South Africa, Ghana, and the souther part of Nigeria have been growing steadally. Is it any wonder that with democracy, good governence, and the rule of law their economies picked up?

I've been to Africa. The problems that Africa suffers from are more the result of capitalism and colonialism than anything else. Of course better macro-conditions are going to help the economies, but you aren't going to see any miracles.

[Dinner]

Read the Book "The Africans" to get a good feel about what it's like to live in sub-saharan Africa, what the governments are like, what the people think, what the level of education and development is. It was written by a BBC reporter who lived in Africa for 25 years and who traveled in every country in Africa. He knows what he's talking about.

Pay special attention to how the communist governments of Tanzania, Ethiopia, and others so totally and royally screwed their countries over.

[Japher]

Yup, yup

The leadership needs to come first to show desire for the market in order for the market to be sustained in areas flooded with "unbankable" people.

I think another good example is The Ivory Coast. The French hand in the affairs allowed for stability, but when they removed it there was war until a suitable leader arose, then he died, and war ensued again destroying the market...

Once leadership is developed, and the market has been established, one must then focus on education and population control (as someone pointed out) to ensure continuing suitable leadership as well as a managable market.

Even with a sound leader a country that sees a market increase to quickly will result in war, as well as a country that sees it increase too slowly. It is a delicate balance between population, education, and money. Yet, IMO, it is the leadership first, the money second, the education third, and the population fourth...

Just my 2 cents...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Read the Book "The Africans" to get a good feel about what it's like to live in sub-saharan Africa, what the governments are like, what the people think, what the level of education and development is. It was written by a BBC reporter who lived in Africa for 25 years and who traveled in every country in Africa. He knows what he's talking about.

Pay special attention to how the communist governments of Tanzania, Ethiopia, and others so totally and royally screwed their countries over.

What does that have to do with anything? I'm not saying that Africa can do it alone. I'm saying that they need a lot of help, and not just access to western markets.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
Yup, yup

The leadership needs to come first to show desire for the market in order for the market to be sustained in areas flooded with "unbankable" people.

I think another good example is The Ivory Coast. The French hand in the affairs allowed for stability, but when they removed it there was war until a suitable leader arose, then he died, and war ensued again destroying the market...

Once leadership is developed, and the market has been established, one must then focus on education and population control (as someone pointed out) to ensure continuing suitable leadership as well as a managable market.

Even with a sound leader a country that sees a market increase to quickly will result in war, as well as a country that sees it increase too slowly. It is a delicate balance between population, education, and money. Yet, IMO, it is the leadership first, the money second, the education third, and the population fourth...

Just my 2 cents...

You're saying that in order to exploit Africa it is necessary for them to have good leadership. I agree, but if they are just given aid then that leadership can be created. First we have to create a condition for that leadership to be created and create some order and civility.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The problems that Africa suffers from are more the result of capitalism and colonialism than anything else.

Very little of Africa's current problems have to do with colonialism. The only one which does is the border issue but you must admite that even this issue has been used as a crutch by dictators to explain away their own personal mismanagement.

As for Africa suffering from capitalism; care to give any examples? I can think of Tanzania's nationalization of the agricultural sector resulted in the entire sector going belly up and Zimbabwe's land redistribution scheme resulting in a 90% reduction in farm output or a host of other ways socialism has failed Africa.

Like I said earlier so many countries in Africa don't benifet from trade 1) because their one product (agriculture) doesn't have access to foreign markets and most compete against subsidized food from rich countries, and 2) The governments are kleptocrates who steal everything which isn't nailed down.

[Japher]

they are just given aid then that leadership can be created. First we have to create a condition for that leadership to be created and create some order and civility.

I disagree. If aide is given to create a leader, that leader will not be strong as he/she will be viewed as a product of foreign policy, and not out of national interest. The leader must come first, kind of.

I think this whole issue is a conundrum...

Oerdin: Africa has a lot to offer besides Ag. Gemstones are huge, but are also outlawed by most countries that they would otherwise trade with...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Very little of Africa's current problems have to do with colonialism. The only one which does is the border issue but you must admite that even this issue has been used as a crutch by dictators to explain away their own personal mismanagement.

If Africa would have recieved aid and friendship instead of exploitation during the colonial period things would have been much better. For whatever reason colonialism has had a much worse effect in Africa than it has in other parts of the world. It tends to linger on there. Instead of foreigners exploiting Africans though, now it is Africans who are exploiting Africans.

Originally posted by Oerdin
As for Africa suffering from capitalism; care to give any examples?

Africa is part of the global capitalist system. They are the losers of the losers. That's how they suffer from capitalism. It's as simple as that. I'm not claiming that nationalising industries there can solve their problems, but that a better world system would.

Originally posted by Oerdin
Like I said earlier so many countries in Africa don't benifet from trade 1) because their one product (agriculture) doesn't have access to foreign markets and most compete against subsidized food from rich countries, and 2) The governments are kleptocrates who steal everything which isn't nailed down.

That's true, but that's real capitalism as it exists and will always exist. That's competition for resources, not cooperation.