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**Al B. Sure!** · July 9, 2003, 00:17

I would have figured someone such as yourself (speaking for the urban population in Philly) would realize that most guns in the ghetto come from suburban whites who's guns get burglarized. I'm surprised...

how does that change anything i said? and nah, there's other ways of getting guns but i'm sure plenty originate from something like that... but anyway, it dont change my point at all...

**Sava** · July 9, 2003, 00:21

Speer: are ther any gun factories in the city? nope... do gangsters possess Firearm owner ID cards? nope... where do you think guns come from?

**DinoDoc** · July 9, 2003, 00:23

Originally posted by Sava
Britain doesn't have high shooting rates...

And?

**Sava** · July 9, 2003, 00:24

And?

It's news to them... I'm connecting the dots for you a lot these days, are you feeling all right DD?

**DinoDoc** · July 9, 2003, 00:27

Originally posted by Sava
It's news to them...

There's shootings in alot of places. What about this one attracted international attention?

**Sava** · July 9, 2003, 00:27

What about this one attracted international attention?

I'm not about to try and understand the Brits...

**Al B. Sure!** · July 9, 2003, 00:31

Sava:

let's say guns were completely made illegal... now it's going to be next to impossible to get rid of guns completely just because of the massive logistics. so you're still going to have hordes of guns everywhere. and if not, guns can be imported... for example, huge numbers of german-made guns end up in the US. it honestly shouldn't be too hard to sneak some in even if they are illegal. and there's also a trade called gun-smithing that you can learn at those technical 'institutes'... dont forget that.

**Dis** · July 9, 2003, 01:03

ooh a great opportunity to give this thread a low rating

**Kramerman** · July 9, 2003, 02:46

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

I didn't have to. One day I was strolling down Time Square and stopped by the front of a gun shop. A young black man approached me, offering submachine guns for sale at $300.

If they were automatic, that is super illegal... i doubt they were... you still have to have a hand gun liscence and go thru the waiting period for a background check tho... pretty disturbing if he wee just to sell it to you and let you walk out with it then and there

**dannubis** · July 9, 2003, 03:27

for my part anybody can own whatever type of weapon they want... at a shooting club. If you want to have a bazooka, go for it, but it never leaves the club building... The only people allowed to carry firearms out on the streets should be either soldiers or law enforcement officers.

Same thing goes with ammunition. each bullet should have a unique number. Before you start shooting you sign for those numbers. When afterwards a bullet is used illegally, which has your number on it you'll have a hell of a lot explaining to do...

Simple isn't it ? All the nutcases who kick on firearms can shoot their way to happines in a controlled environment (less accidents) and everybody out on the streets in possession of a firearm is commitong a crime ...

**Sikander** · July 9, 2003, 04:39

Originally posted by GePap
I have no problem with the general ownership of hunting rifles or shotguns: Very little cirme is commited by people who won guns in the back woods. Autmoatic weapons are certainly problematic and should be highly, highly regulated. BUt to me handguns are the most trouble: they are the ones most commonly used for crimes, and if the idea is to fight of "the man" when the black helicopters come to take your children away, most handguns are the least effective firearms you can have to stand up to "him" (or anyone armed with something much bigger).

You can add so-called assault weapons (ie not real assault weapons which are by definition selective fire, but semi-automatic rifles and carbines that look like assault weapons) to that list, as less than 1% of all gun crimes are committed with them. Automatic weapons have been very heavily regulated since the 1930s, and I have never heard of a single case where a legally owned automatic weapon has been used in a crime.

**Sikander** · July 9, 2003, 04:50

Originally posted by MikeH

I don't have time to look for them now, got to go out but they are MUCH lower in the UK. I'll find them tomorrow if I remember (Ought to save them somewhere this comes up so often.) As people always point out here though it's normally the people in the poorer areas getting shot so most of the Apolyton posters who tend to live in nice areas aren't so bothered about it.

It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun than, say, a knife, and a lot less messy.

You are more likely to die from a stab wound than a bullet wound, though obviously it is easier to cause a bullet wound than a stab wound if you know how to shoot. The UK has gone completely around the bend recently with their gun restrictions. Even the British Olympic shooting teams have to go to France to practice. Interestingly, while seizing the property of law abiding gun owners and making it practically impossible to legally own a firearm, the UK has seen an enormous increase in gun crime due to guns being smuggled in from outside. So your stats seem to be heading in all the wrong directions, less freedom and more gun crime.

**MikeH** · July 9, 2003, 04:55

True. It was a very reactionary response to a guy going crazy with a gun and killing some kids. There was a public outcry and people demanded it. I think our old regulations were fine as they were.

I guess that means that there are so many murders in the US because it's such a fvcked up place.

**Sikander** · July 9, 2003, 05:04

Originally posted by MikeH
True. It was a very reactionary response to a guy going crazy with a gun and killing some kids. There was a public outcry and people demanded it. I think our old regulations were fine as they were.

I guess that means that there are so many murders in the US because it's such a fvcked up place.

That's a lot of our problem. Almost half (48%) of our murders are committed by African Americans (12% of the pop.), who as a group are enormously unhealthy by almost any measure. Another large chunk of murders are committed by crackers, who also have a lot of social pathology, and a much longer history of personal violence. I should know, I am one. Another fairly large percentage of gun crime can be directly associated to the drug war/ drug trade. If you take the remaining numbers, the U.S. doesn't look so bad in comparison to Europe, especially when you consider how much freedom we have to own guns (ie opportunity).

**MikeH** · July 9, 2003, 06:00

Yeah but don't forget that the greatest subset of our murders are drug related as well.

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