Do these people never learn?! Frist backs Ban on Gay Marriage.

[Q Classic]

Shouldn't the lobbyists be the entire american population?

of course not! who cares what the public has to say, so long as we take care of our own...

[Dis]

you are blinded by your ideology.

The waste in the military is atonishing. And we were the poor branch. The air force even has cushier accomidations.

but I'm suspsecting Templar is really a troll. Nobody can have that extreme of a viewpoint.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Templar
So the question stands - where does Jesus support one plank of the right wing platform? (Hint: he doesn't)

Is this a request for me to dig up an essay on Jesus being a commie? I already did the libertarian route.

PS Re the "cop out" answer: You're redefining your original comment. That's the reason I don't care to go onto this particular merry go round.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Dissident
you are blinded by your ideology.

The waste in the military is atonishing. And we were the poor branch. The air force even has cushier accomidations.

but I'm suspsecting Templar is really a troll. Nobody can have that extreme of a viewpoint.

Admittedly, I know next to nothing about the military. I used to work for the Travis Co. Dept of Corrections (Austin, TX) and saw little waste there. I regularly deal with NYC agencies these days and see little waste there. In fact, I'm amazed how far PA (public assistance) stretches a dollar.

On the other hand, I have worked for some large private companies and saw the sort of waste typically attributed only to the government. This includes 10 people on an assembly line on which 4 people would have been too many.

Nothing ideological - just observation. Size and the people staffing an organization are better indicators of waste than public or private. The military is huge, so I would expect to see lots of waste. Again, I don't know.

And DD, I hesitate to put it that way, but sure, the text of the gospels supports a fiscally-communist Jesus better than it supports a libertarian Jesus. Sorry, but the guy just kept talking about helping the poor and downtrodden, the meek would inherit the earth, and riches were an impediment to salvation.

[Berzerker]

the text of the gospels supports a fiscally-communist Jesus better than it supports a libertarian Jesus. Sorry, but the guy just kept talking about helping the poor and downtrodden, the meek would inherit the earth, and riches were an impediment to salvation.

Where exactly did Jesus tell his followers to create a government and forcibly "re-distribute" other people's wealth?
When a young man asked to join Jesus' group, he was told to give away his wealth and the young man walked away. Jesus left it up to him to decide what should be done with his money, not communists.

[Berzerker]

Templar -

The thing I find funniest is that conservatives want to cut social spending, they take the attitude of "Am I my brother's keeper." But Cain said that ...

And God didn't answer, the question was rhetorical.

The funny thing is, whenever conservatives reach for the Bible to support one of their positions, they invariably reach for the old testament or Paul's Epistles. They never quote the Gospels (except perhaps John 3:16 - but that's a whole other argument).

Funny, which verse have you cited?

Not really, telling the Jews to pay taxes to the Romans was quite a radical thing to say at the time.

Since most were paying taxes, it wasn't that radical.

But sure, Jesus was more about spiritual health over material wealth. Of course, that in itself is a political move.

Huh?

And BTW, who is condoning either sloth or stealing?

You are.

Tax isn't stealing and most people on public assistance aren't lazy.

Taxes are nothing more than one group of people demanding another to hand over their money with the threat of violence, even death, behind the demand. If my friends and I did that to you without help from "politicians", you'd sure consider that stealing.

Unless you mean to say something stupidly libertarian like "tax is theft".

Hmm...it's stupid to recognise the obvious and smart to remain oblivious to the truth for the sake of "ideology"? As Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits) said, "I legalised robbery, and called it belief".

Of course tax can't be theft since tax is collected by the government

Then genocide isn't genocide when committed by governments.

the property regime is created by the government, and tax is therefore outside of the property regime.

You mean the concept of property did not exist before politicians invented it? How do you explain all those people who fought tooth and nail to prevent others from stealing their property before government came along?

So the question stands - where does Jesus support one plank of the right wing platform? (Hint: he doesn't)

Freedom, of course, that would be the libertarian plank of the "right" wing.

Dissident, words don't mean alot to me.

Obviously their meanings don't either.

I've read the Bible, I read what Jesus said. If one has faith in Jesus, then it seems to me that one should endevour to do the sorts of things Jesus said to do.

And Jesus told his followers to form a government and "tax" people? Certainly you should be able to find the verse for this revelation...

Tax cuts? Jesus said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". In other words, pay your taxes and shut up. (Our money you might note has our Caesars on them.)

Caesar's image was on that money, our "Caesars" are long dead and rejected your ideology when they were alive.

Social services cuts? What ever happened to "if a man asks for your coat, give him your shirt too."

Strange, Jesus didn't say, "take John's coat and give it to Peter".

Pay your taxes, shut the **** up, and vote for leaders who will direct those taxes to the neediest. That's what Jesus would do.

Verse?

Getting rich? "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven."

And you believe Jesus wanted to force us to enter Heaven?

So we should redistribute wealth equally.

Really? Where did Jesus say that?

This would help the poor live well, and help the rich get into heaven. And heaven and Jesus are better than money right?

If Jesus didn't force us to seek Heaven, why do you in his name?

You see, unlike most conservatives I bothered to read the Bible and understand it - instead of just banging the damn thing. Do I have a lock on the truth. Nope - but the text supports my understanding.

I haven't seen you use any text to support your arguments.

Jesus on the mount called for helping your fellow man, and being part of the community.

When Jesus was instructing his disciples, he told them to travel among the various communities (not join one) and preach his message. If they rejected the message, what were his disciples to do? LEAVE and go on to the next.

He did not call for tax cuts, being greedy, or oppressing gays and women.

Nor did he tell his followers to "tax" anyone.

But hey DinoDoc, I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong. Show us Jesus quotes that backs a Republican position.

Hmm...changing your position I see.

[JohnT]

The very fact that the idiot proposed a Constitutional Amendment shows that he's pandering. Had the guy been actually serious, he would've tried for something a little less difficult.

[Berzerker]

At least he supports amending the Constitution, usually these jokers just ignore it.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Berzerker
At least he supports amending the Constitution, usually these jokers just ignore it.

Are we still talking about Congressmen here or have we moved back to judges?

[Sava]

Was I refering to you in my post, Sava?

Sorry that dissenting, nonconformist views bother you... perhaps you should move to Cuba or China.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dissident

Who died and made you god

Jesus.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Templar -
Funny, which verse have you cited?

Several, I just don't have the numbers memorized

Taxes are nothing more than one group of people demanding another to hand over their money with the threat of violence, even death, behind the demand. If my friends and I did that to you without help from "politicians", you'd sure consider that stealing.

That "one group" would be the public. The public who elects the government. The government that creates property rights.

You mean the concept of property did not exist before politicians invented it?

In the English common law system (our system sort of) property (in terms of land - and that's what counted back then) was distributed by the king, returned to the king on the owners death and returned to the king if you were treasonous (and there was a loose standard for that back then). The king and parliament gradually added things like alienablity, devisability (wills, inheritance), etc.

But the Romans, Greeks, Indians, Egyptians, and everyone else before English common law pretty much did the same thing.

Property is not natural, it is a pure creation of politics. But I argued this point successfully in another thread.

How do you explain all those people who fought tooth and nail to prevent others from stealing their property before government came along?

Well that's not really property is it? That was seizure by force of arms and your claim was only as good as your ability to take other comers. You could fight tooth an nail, but before government you had no legal claim - laws are created by governments. And property is essentially a legal claim - not a right of force claim. If there is no regime to enforce your claim, how do you claim a right to something other than by force? And if the only claim is force-based then the stronger guy will take it an it will be his.

Also, you can't have theft before government. Theft is an unjustified taking of property where the terms 'unjustified' and 'property' are defined by government. No government, no theft. Do try to argue coherently.

And Jesus told his followers to form a government and "tax" people? Certainly you should be able to find the verse for this revelation...

Jesus was a religious leader, not a political leader. My point is that at best for you right wingers Jesus was indifferent to tax cuts. But Jesus also understood the importance of community, so I figure he would favor a community with good amounts of social spending.

Caesar's image was on that money, our "Caesars" are long dead and rejected your ideology when they were alive.

The point Jesus was making is that one should not be so concerned about material things. In other words, the money is Caesar's system (money, like property, is defined by government), a worldly system.

Hmm...changing your position I see.

No, just admitting I could be wrong.

[GePap]

Don't you know templar that by answering in kind, you only encourage Bezerker's chop suey style of post gutting and answering?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
Don't you know templar that by answering in kind, you only encourage Bezerker's chop suey style of post gutting and answering?

I never really got why people are down on Berz. He always answers the relevent point from what I've seen.

[GePap]

It's his method. That whole "cut it up sentence by sentence" is annoying as heck, plus a good arguement is contructed in a whole paragraph, not sentence by sentence. And it makes the post itself huge.