Fate, Random chance, or Synchronicity?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
In such a scenario you create considerable problems in explaining the evolution of the universe and the creation of a creature that has the free will to collapse the zillions of eigenstates from which it came into the single history from it could come. Or in other words, you are saying that if you don't observe a multistate universe it will create a creature that can observe itself, and in doing so will collapse it to a single state universe. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Hmm. I see your point - a sort of chicken and egg thing.
If we don't have any method of collapsing the wavefunction other than by 'intelligent' beings, the universe would evolve into a wavefunction spanning many possible eigenstates - of which one eigenstate would eventually contain an 'intelligent' being. Then it would instantly collapse into that particular eigenstate. Presumably that would imply that 'intelligent' beings should evolve very fast since the quantum evolution leading to the fastest evolution would be favoured.

A sort of extreem anthropic principle.

It isn't mathematically inconsistant, but maybe a little aesthetically unpleasing. I will have to think about this...

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by elijah
Briefly, this universe, to use the Einsteinian constructs, is 4-dimensional, the spatial dimensions that we all know, and time. However, there are infinities in this universe, and factors that remain entirely random from this perspective, and where this is relevant includes such things as Heisenbergs theory, as well as Schrodingers (remember the cat?).

I don't mean to be contentious, but there are no infinities in physics. (Just things that look like them.)

WIthout going into too many details, they state that even with total knowledge of this 4 dimensional universe at a given point, we can only know positions and not velocities, in complete and accurate proportion to position. As such, even with 100% knowledge of this universe, our accuracy of predictions will decrease exponentially from the epoch of complete knowledge, a sort of universal weather forecast-like situation.

Agreed, although the main effect of this is just an opening of phase-space, ie. is purely Newtonian in nature. The only difference is that one cannot in principle (rather than just in practice) know 100% of the initial state.

By viewing the universe from a transdimensional (or in this case 5-14 dimensions depending on whether you include elements of string theory) perspective, ones perception of time is changed so that ours becomes a vector like length or depth. As such, Heisenbergs theory no longer exists, so chaos theory as we know it, assuming perfect knowledge kicks in.

If I understand you correctly, you are advocating a hidden variable theory. In your case, the hidden variables are just quantities in the extra dimensions which we cannot measure. Hidden variable theories are quite an old idea, but I have never heard them framed in terms of extra dimensions.

Unfortunately all hidden variable theories thought up so far have been shown to be inconsistent. But maybe...

You could also couch my 'proto-theory' in the same light of extra-dimensions. Imagine there were one (or more) extra dimension where the physics was non-predictive. Standard particles would be fixed on our 4d world, but would interact weaky with a particle which can propagate in the 'bulk' (the 'weak' part could be done simply by making the particle heavy). This particle would then communicate the non-predicability of the bulk to our 4d sheet, giving the possibility of free-will. (A similar method is sometimes postulated as a reason for why gravity is so weak.)

[Whaleboy]

I don't mean to be contentious, but there are no infinities in physics. (Just things that look like them.)

Precisely!! Its not contentious at all by the way, I welcome debate it helps me forge my ideas. Mathematically speaking, on a graph of 1 - 10, 11 is infinity as far as the graph is concerned.

The "infinities" in this universe are not so, they are only appearing like that, for example quantum singularities, because they are 5-dimensional (or at least n+1 dimensional whereas the number of dimensions we can perceive is n). This also includes stuff like heisenbergs theory etc that effects determinism.

By having transdimensional knowledge, not only does one know that these "inifinities" are not so, but that they are instead quantifiable, something we with our perception, cannot do.

If I understand you correctly, you are advocating a hidden variable theory. In your case, the hidden variables are just quantities in the extra dimensions which we cannot measure. Hidden variable theories are quite an old idea, but I have never heard them framed in terms of extra dimensions

In a manner of speaking, I suppose that is the case. Mathematically, a dimension is a property attributed to an event, and something we cannot, or at most barely perceive could be termed a hidden variable.

Consider the universe as the region directly affected by the big bang (12-14 billion years old, all we can see etc etc). This is our 4-dimensional world, but there are phenomenon that the laws of physics as we know them, that are inherent to this universe, cannot explain, the laws of the universe cannot explain all of it.

The logical solution is a realm outside (not in the familial sense) of which phenomenon like black holes, possibly "dark matter", or indeed fluctuations in the background radiation of the universe, have properties and originate.

In this sense, this new time, would allow our time (the fourth dimension) to become linear, whereas in 4d it is not. It would allow us to explain superlumial phenomenon like tachyons, and possibly, should we find some way to harness it, allow us to realise the possibility of FTL travel, without breaking relativity, more commonly known as "wormholes" (an idea I hate). As our time in 5d is merely a spatial vector, theoretically, it could be traversed.

In that sense, your proto theory is very similar to mine, because an n+1 dimension can interact with the n dimension, for example, a 2d square aquires such things as mass and other properties when it is 3d, which to a 2d being must appear as an infinity. Ignore the obvious contradiction in terms of a 2d being in this universe! In this universe, it would explain singularities, heisenberg etc etc.

In the context of determinism, transdimensional theory would require total knowledge of both 4 and 5 dimensions, in order to for true determinism in 4-dimensional universe. That and this:

The only difference is that one cannot in principle (rather than just in practice) know 100% of the initial state

...is why true determinism will probably never be within our grasp.

What I like about transdimensional theory is that it can be a philosophy as well as a cosmological theory, in the sense that it is how we in fact solve problems. A simple logical problem:

1 + 1 = ?

Is solved by going from, in this case, a figurative dimension of single numbers to a dimension of multiple numbers:

1 + 1 = 2

If this was not the case, it would look like this

1 + 1 = (1 & 1)

As the dimension of single or separate number is not being taken forward in n+1 manner, to dimension of multiple, or sum numbers.

If one thinks about it, it is the basis for the entirity of logic, indeed, it is how we solve problems!

[Whaleboy]

I don't mean to be contentious, but there are no infinities in physics. (Just things that look like them.)

Precisely!! Its not contentious at all by the way, I welcome debate it helps me forge my ideas. Mathematically speaking, on a graph of 1 - 10, 11 is infinity as far as the graph is concerned.

The "infinities" in this universe are not so, they are only appearing like that, for example quantum singularities, because they are 5-dimensional (or at least n+1 dimensional whereas the number of dimensions we can perceive is n). This also includes stuff like heisenbergs theory etc that effects determinism.

By having transdimensional knowledge, not only does one know that these "inifinities" are not so, but that they are instead quantifiable, something we with our perception, cannot do.

If I understand you correctly, you are advocating a hidden variable theory. In your case, the hidden variables are just quantities in the extra dimensions which we cannot measure. Hidden variable theories are quite an old idea, but I have never heard them framed in terms of extra dimensions

In a manner of speaking, I suppose that is the case. Mathematically, a dimension is a property attributed to an event, and something we cannot, or at most barely perceive could be termed a hidden variable.

Consider the universe as the region directly affected by the big bang (12-14 billion years old, all we can see etc etc). This is our 4-dimensional world, but there are phenomenon that the laws of physics as we know them, that are inherent to this universe, cannot explain, the laws of the universe cannot explain all of it.

The logical solution is a realm outside (not in the familial sense) of which phenomenon like black holes, possibly "dark matter", or indeed fluctuations in the background radiation of the universe, have properties and originate.

In this sense, this new time, would allow our time (the fourth dimension) to become linear, whereas in 4d it is not. It would allow us to explain superlumial phenomenon like tachyons, and possibly, should we find some way to harness it, allow us to realise the possibility of FTL travel, without breaking relativity, more commonly known as "wormholes" (an idea I hate). As our time in 5d is merely a spatial vector, theoretically, it could be traversed.

In that sense, your proto theory is very similar to mine, because an n+1 dimension can interact with the n dimension, for example, a 2d square aquires such things as mass and other properties when it is 3d, which to a 2d being must appear as an infinity. Ignore the obvious contradiction in terms of a 2d being in this universe! In this universe, it would explain singularities, heisenberg etc etc.

In the context of determinism, transdimensional theory would require total knowledge of both 4 and 5 dimensions, in order to for true determinism in 4-dimensional universe. That and this:

The only difference is that one cannot in principle (rather than just in practice) know 100% of the initial state

...is why true determinism will probably never be within our grasp.

What I like about transdimensional theory is that it can be a philosophy as well as a cosmological theory, in the sense that it is how we in fact solve problems. A simple logical problem:

1 + 1 = ?

Is solved by going from, in this case, a figurative dimension of single numbers to a dimension of multiple numbers:

1 + 1 = 2

If this was not the case, it would look like this

1 + 1 = (1 & 1)

As the dimension of single or separate number is not being taken forward in n+1 manner, to dimension of multiple, or sum numbers.

If one thinks about it, it is the basis for the entirity of logic, indeed, it is how we solve problems!

[Whaleboy]

Ah jesus!!! I really shouldnt click twice when the page is loading slow (GET NEW SERVERS!!!! )

[Drogue]

Originally posted by elijah
Ah jesus!!! I really shouldnt click twice when the page is loading slow

No, and you should also edit your posts. This did not need a third post, just edit the second

Originally posted by elijah
(GET NEW SERVERS!!!! )

When we start paying for the site, then we can start demanding better web hosting. Until then, I suggest we be thankful for what we have

[Odin]

Fate violates everything I have read about quantum mechanics, that everything is reduced to probablilities (Heisenberg may have slept here ), our brains are governed by the quantum mechanics of the water molecules near specialized microtubules (cellular stuctures made of the protien tubulin) in our neurons.

[Sava]

I don't believe in pre-determination. I think people put too much stock into chance as well... chance does exist, but people mistakenly describe certain events as chance. The rolling of a die for instance... if one could measure the forces at work and compute the data fast enough, one could correctly call a die roll. The outcome isn't chance... it's causality. I think "cause and effect" is the overriding concept of how the universe works. Chance and predictability exist, but are not king.

I disagree with your time-prediction model Uber... assuming the universe is infinite, it would be impossible to measure every bit of matter and force at work. Perhaps, the model would work if the universe was limited, or we were so far away from other forces that we could predict things for a region.

I think free will exists. Choice exists. It's possible to make guesses and predictions with a degree of accuracy based upon a lot of data, but in the end, I believe people to be responsible for their choices.