Rugby - Advantage Over!

[Solly]

No-one is mourning Beckham and you do have to admit that league is the more athletic, interesting and true form of the game.

[MikeH]

Well, that was more like it.

All four tries in the game were really nice, would have liked us not to concede one but if any of the backs on either team deserved a try Sailor did. He looks very, very dangerous.

Lewsey doesn't look big enough to tackle like that.

Agree with whoever said about Wilko's kicks at goal. He only had 2 penalties to go for all game I think. Great discipline from the Aussies. Only thing though, aren't there any kickers in the Southern Hemisphere? If there are why aren't any of them playing? It's bizarre.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Hop away and start a crappy L***** thread then and see how long it survives If you can stop mourning over Beckham long enough.



well done England!

Yes totally self indulgent to gloat like that – but I’ve been waiting for this a long time and I really enjoyed it.

You're entitled to. Their first half was as close to unstoppable rugby as it gets. That we kept you out in the first half was testament to our defence.

Australia really stepped up to the plate as expected – by far their best showing in this series of games Finbar?

Yes, they stepped up to the plate, and yes, it was our best showing since Twickenham last November. As I said, they usually rise to the occasion.

And why am I the only stick in the mud when Tamerlin seems to think every referee hates France?

I wish you hadn't made reference to this pattern that is emerging with Tamerlin's posts. I've been keeping tally of his grizzles and was going to wait till France won a game and he didn't grizzle before posting the obvious. OTOH, maybe you were right to mention it. We could all be long dead and buried before Les Grenouilles win another game.

Mind you as the spirit of the thread with the new blood is no longer just the enjoyable SH-NH ‘one eyed’ banter let me offer some serious observations for you.

Give MikeH a chance. He's new. I'm sure he has it in him to be as petty, spiteful and childish as the rest of us.

Firstly our line out worked rather well I think – and the Aussies struggled there hugely early doors – and even a little after Paul was exchanged?

Yes, but I didn't think it had a huge impact. I can only recall you pinching one of ours. The damage was done by the forwards around the ground in the first half.

We use rolling mauls to great effect and the Wallabies do struggle to defend them.

Everyone struggles against a good rolling maul. No one could have stopped that first half effort.

It was a shame Wilko made that terrible cross kick call after that awesome maul in the first half?

I have to say, I think that's about his only weakness. He sometimes makes tactically dubious calls. He did last week and again last night.

And can you remember a game where Wilko had so few pots at goal? The Wallabies really kept their discipline well.

Yes.

And the real surprise? Sailor. He may, just may, make a Union player yet. Yes Dallaglio screwed up by not stepping forward the way he had all game, and yes a gold shirt very effectively got ahead of the ball carrier and blocked the second up tackler – but the eye for the space and the power and pace in a very individual and honestly brilliant score shows that there is promise there – and also a brain.

Yes, it was the rugby nouse that surprised me. It's about the first time he's shown it.

But the fly half experiment? Don’t think it will be repeated? Nathan really is very direct and one dimensional isn’t he?

Experiment? It was necessity. It was either Gray or Roff, and with Larkham having one of his stinkers, there was no way Roff could have been used, particularly in the first half. Roff went to fly half after Gray went off but it was late in the game. I'll comment on the dropping of Flatley later in the post.

And Sharpe – well he wasn’t fit to play really was he – I think the set pieces improved greatly when the bok came on?

Sharpe did his best while he was on, but his mobility was always hampered. It was a silly decision to play him. Even if it wasn't, technically, a strain, it was obviously an injury.

Don’t tell me Cohen should have been carded in the first half – it’s redundant as of course he should have been. I also thought it disappointing that Jonno, who had another towering game, felt compelled in the second half to step on someone and leak a penalty rather than the put in at the scrum.

Yes, and yes.

Not to mention that fairly deliberate Jonno knock on McHugh missed on 69 mins eh Finbar?

Ironically, I rewound my tape of the game to double check Sailor's try - more on that later - and it stopped precisely at the moment of J****'s "knock on". I think McHugh had a brain fade. It was right in front of him. He obviously saw it because he called it a "knock on". What he forgot was that it should have been a penalty. Bizarre.

I am disappointed we didn’t pressure Latham’s kicking more – he looked suspect and also seems far too slow off the mark for a fullback – he was exposed several times form a standing start.

Latham had a stinker in every way. He's normally a superb kicker and he's usually as quick off the mark as any of the backs. But he was totally out of sorts - fumbling the ball, looking slow, missing tackles. As I said last night, his critics call him suspect under pressure and the knives are already out for him this morning. He's been dropped before after one bad game and I hope it doesn't happen to him again.

Michael Lynagh, summarising for Sky in the studio, proved a traitorous streak as after praising the Wallabies for giving it a damn good go, and expressing his bafflement at Jones for the misguided Flatley scenario

Yes, it's very easy to be wise afterwards. Flatley admitted in this morning's media that it was his second offence. He'd been warned once before on tour. So Eddie was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

, praising Sailor for his vision and pace – then promptly proved with video footage that Wendell was well in touch before he grounded. If we had lost I’d be making more of that after all the ‘Luger’ business.

Then you'd be ignored. I have it on tape and I've just watched it several times, normal motion and frame by frame. Sailor clearly grounds the ball twice. The first time, he's well inside the line, and Cohen's hands aren't on the ball. The second time, for good measure, by which time Sailor's legs have slid over the line, it looks like Cohen could have had his hand under the ball anyway. I'm happy to send you a dub of the tape.

Woodward, calm and happy, kept his comments carefully respectful and cautious but he did express his pleasure at the fact that England were running the ball more and their opponents kicking at the sticks more.

Either you saw only part of the interview or missed the other one he gave post-match. I quote from it:

"Down here everyone talks about everything but winning. When you're labelled by the opposition coach in terms of the way you play, you just shrug ... I don't believe in coaches putting pressure on referees through the media. It's not good for the sport, but he (Jones) keeps doing it. I'm just pleased we've won four out of four against him. We'll wait until October and the next media campaign orchestrated by him. We're used to it now, and we thrive on it".

Breathtaking hypocrisy meets churlishness. Watching the shots of him in the box during the match, I think he's psychotic.

I do hope that the ABs don’t do what I suggested last week though and think this sets everything right.

Mitchell is too sensible to think that, and he's the only who counts - not idiots writing on websites or in the media. He tried out more of his squad against Wales, which is about the only benefit to be had from such a game. What's the point of playing McCaw against Wales?

Wales are not serious opposition and the Wallabies had to play really badly not to sweep them away last week.

My point exactly. The ABs did to them what we should've. If we'd played Wales with the same level of intensity and commitment we displayed last night, we'd've done what the ABs did. We didn't. It's a replay of the Ireland-England scenario last November. I'd like to know why.

Still we have to accept the ABs are bookies favourites for the World Cup. England are clear at the top if the rankings – four in a row against the Wallabies and Boks, two against the ABs and having won 13 in a row and 27of the last 29 now I think. But strangely I’m happy the bookies don’t have them as favourites to be honest.

England now, statistically, has to be favourites for the RWC. The unknowns at this point are the respective degrees of improvement between now and then.

[finbar]

Originally posted by MikeH
Lewsey doesn't look big enough to tackle like that.

Rogers was wide open for it and it was perfectly executed with the shoulder and arms. It was the shoulder that did the damage. It proves you don't have to be a hulking forward to do it. I hope Butch James was watching the use of the arms.

Only thing though, aren't there any kickers in the Southern Hemisphere? If there are why aren't any of them playing? It's bizarre.

Goal kickers or field kickers? Flatley - dropped for the match for disciplinary reasons - would have been our goal kicker. He's been kicking while in the team for Larkham and while Burke has been out. He would also have done most of the field kicking last night. Latham and Roff are also accomplished. Not that you'd've thought it last night watching the former.

[ravagon]

Very entertaining match. Aus-Eng I mean. The AB's vs Wales was a bit of a let down after that (It wasn't screened here until later).
England dominated through about the 60th minute when the Wallabies began throwing caution to the wind.
How they managed to win so many turnovers is completely beyond me but it was an impressive piece of work.

They maintained a level-headedness I haven't really seen before from an England side (someone will suggest the captains influence no doubt ) - even when scrambling to cover the few Australian breaks there was no real sense of desperation - just determination - IMO anyway. A rather well-deserved win overall.
I just wish I'd backed them at 3.5 to 1 odds. I'm not likely to get that now ...

For the Wallabies, Wendell impressed me the most. In those instances where he had space to run the ball from the back line he always looked dangerous and it eventually paid off - far too late though...

Originally posted by finbar
And England's rolling maul in the first half was one of the great pieces of rugby I've seen in years. Classic stuff.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by finbar Rogers was wide open for it and it was perfectly executed with the shoulder and arms. It was the shoulder that did the damage. It proves you don't have to be a hulking forward to do it. I hope Butch James was watching the use of the arms.

Goal kickers or field kickers? Flatley - dropped for the match for disciplinary reasons - would have been our goal kicker. He's been kicking while in the team for Larkham and while Burke has been out. He would also have done most of the field kicking last night. Latham and Roff are also accomplished. Not that you'd've thought it last night watching the former.

Yeah, I know. It was great technique and that wasn't the only time he did it either.

Well... both but mainly goal kickers. Maybe we're spoilt having Wilkinson.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by finbar


Rogers was wide open for it and it was perfectly executed with the shoulder and arms. It was the shoulder that did the damage. It proves you don't have to be a hulking forward to do it.

What I have been trying to teach my boy......

[finbar]

Originally posted by MikeH
Well... both but mainly goal kickers. Maybe we're spoilt having Wilkinson.

Matt Burke, one of the great goal kickers, hasn't played for a couple of months with a knee injury. So with his backup - Flatley - out of the team for disciplinary reasons, we had our third choice kicker - Roff - on Saturday night. Roff has only seriously started kicking for the ACT Brumbies this season. I don't know about being spoiled having Wilko, but you'll certainly notice the difference if he ever misses a game.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


What I have been trying to teach my boy......

Poor old Matt Rogers was so open and exposed that even your boy could have cleaned him up.

[Caligastia]

Gah!

I was talking to this bloke from England last night, and he blurted out the result of the England/Australia game! I'll watch it anyway, but I wish I hadn't found out what happened. England are definitely on top of the rugby world right now, but I expect the ABs will improve after a few tri-nations games. I expect by the time the RWC rolls around that NZ and England will be about level at the top with Australia close behind.

It's true that the crushing of Wales doesn't put everything right in the All Black camp, but it was a good stepping stone up to the game against France. After France it will be another step up when the Tri-nations begins.

[finbar]

Clive Woodward was at it again the day after the match: "I think he (Jones) spends more time planning his press conferences than his training sessions".

Your team shows a great deal more class than you do, Clive.

[Havak]

You're entitled to. Their first half was as close to unstoppable rugby as it gets. That we kept you out in the first half was testament to our defence.

Forwards and backs working together – it was thoroughly un-English in a way. Yes the Wallaby defence was very solid – it took some real effort to breach it. The hands leading up to Tindalls score left me speechless.

As I said, they usually rise to the occasion.

I expected nothing less. No Aussie side will ever roll over for ‘Poms’.

We could all be long dead and buried before Les Grenouilles win another game.

So they are in poor form, with a string of losses behind them, and about to face NZ. That sounds very familiar. Might be worth a punt on them?

I'm sure he has it in him to be as petty, spiteful and childish as the rest of us.

I’d like to know what domestic side he supports? That will answer the question.

Yes, but I didn't think it had a huge impact. I can only recall you pinching one of ours. The damage was done by the forwards around the ground in the first half.

We pinched one by competing in the first half. Paul’s throwing led to turnovers on three or four other occasions though – mainly through knock ons reaching for his wild throws.

Yes the lads played well. They did look rather tired in the second half though. It definitely looked like the last game of a long season by then. Had it gone on another ten minutes – well who knows.

I’ll tell you what else surprised me – for him McHugh had a very lenient game. Mind you having picked on our faults I would say the player on the Wallaby side who came closest to being carded was Waughy. He was doing his job so well that he naturally ended up where he should not have been on numerous occasions. I wonder – will Smithy walk straight back in?

No one could have stopped that first half effort.

Not legally anyway. And it is to your credit that you didn’t choose to leak the penalty.

He sometimes makes tactically dubious calls. He did last week and again last night.

Yes he does. Maybe he will grow as he gets older. I keep forgetting he is only 23.

He obviously saw it because he called it a "knock on". What he forgot was that it should have been a penalty. Bizarre.

He’s Irish – he had his mind on the craic later on no doubt.

As I said last night, his critics call him suspect under pressure and the knives are already out for him this morning.

It would be rather unfair. Okay his kicking game wasn’t hot but nor was he at fault for the Cohen score – he was damned whichever way he went there I think. Still the look of Roffs face as Latham was left and he had to try and gas it himself was priceless.

So Eddie was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

Even so a fine and a stern talking to might have seemed more appropriate to me.

I'm happy to send you a dub of the tape.

No need. I’m not arguing the score. The move deserved it. I only saw one grounding motion however and that was the latter one you described. And I have the game on tape so I had better watch it again.

Either you saw only part of the interview or missed the other one he gave post-match

The latter. He gave a second interview to your media and they led him right where they wanted him.

Breathtaking hypocrisy meets churlishness. Watching the shots of him in the box during the match, I think he's psychotic.

Oh that’s way too strong. He gets emotionally involved sure – he is no Henry or Jones – but he is not a psycho.

I am disappointed he chose to speak out this way – but the ultimate reality for me is that he is right in what he is saying. Eddie does try to intimidate referees, he does try to convince Australia that the IRB and referees do what he demands, and it is high time he kept his mouth shut about officials before the games.

Woodwards infamous press conference – AFTER the game. See the difference? How is Woodward intimidating a referee after a match?

What's the point of playing McCaw against Wales?

None at all. Lets hope he respects France by playing the man though or it might come back to haunt him.

It's a replay of the Ireland-England scenario last November. I'd like to know why.

All teams are going to struggle to raise themselves for every game. I’m sure Wales was always seen as the softest of the three games and it looks like that had an effect on the ‘headology’ (apologies to Terry Pratchett).

England now, statistically, has to be favourites for the RWC. The unknowns at this point are the respective degrees of improvement between now and then.

The Bookies favourites are still the ABs. I’m not arguing to be honest –although my personal pick is still the Wallabies. Everything looks set against Australia and we all suspect that is when they play best.

We have a chance – that’s all I’ll say. Out team is very settled – what you saw Saturday will, barring injury, probably be the side for RWC. We will be much fresher by then. With the warm up games with France and Wales we should also be ‘played in’. We are actually capable of playing better than Saturday – because the finishing execution was still lacking. If we get a game where the forwards and Johnny click at the same time someone may be in for a stuffing. I’d love to see us codemn the Boks to face the ABs in the second round myself.

I hope Butch James was watching the use of the arms.

He seems to be out of favour anyway – presumably the penalty count?

I don't know about being spoiled having Wilko, but you'll certainly notice the difference if he ever misses a game

But maybe not for the kicking. Alex King is a very solid place and tactical kicker. But Johnny offers a lot more than that.

As I have said before the injury to Sale’s Charlies Hodgson is the real problem. He’s the number two and very much in the same mould.

After France it will be another step up when the Tri-nations begins.

Are you trying to offend Tamerlin Caligastia? Even now France offer more to you than the boks will.

Your team shows a great deal more class than you do, Clive.

So Clive being rude about Eddie bothers you? They, um, don’t like each other. Its pretty well known.
There’s huge bad blood between them after the way Eddie has played silly media games on the last few tours up here. Other coaches have ripped into Eddie too – he seems to draw that in the same way Clive does. It’s unfortunate, but frankly I blame your hacks for urging him on. What do your media do when Australia lose? Wind up opponents to get unfortunate quotes?

Let me say I wish Clive would now zip it – but I wish Eddie would too - on the other side of games. And how quickly we forget all the rude snippets from Eddie about English rugby?

And can I ask – have you heard any of the players saying anything negative about their opponents after Saturday? I would be hugely surprised – it’s something Jonno sets the tone on (for all his temperament faults he is almost never negative about opponents post match). The worst I heard was Greenwoods Dads army revenge plan.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
So they are in poor form, with a string of losses behind them, and about to face NZ. That sounds very familiar. Might be worth a punt on them?

On Les Grenouilles? Not me. The ABs are warming up, and from what I was reading, they've left a few of their better players at home.

I’d like to know what domestic side he supports? That will answer the question.

Bath, I bet.

I’ll tell you what else surprised me – for him McHugh had a very lenient game.

I was surprised by what he either missed or let go. Very different performance to when I last saw him in the infamous fat drunken Bok game. Still, maybe being monstered by a fat drunken Bok has given him a different perspective on the world. It does happen to people who suddenly confront mortality, you know.

I wonder – will Smithy walk straight back in?

It's Waugh's best ever performance. Something he's always promised. His fitness level is simply extraordinary. Believe me, Smith was playing just as well (in his own way) before the injury. I suppose the only difference was that Waugh did it against England, and Smith had done it against the lesser Ireland and Wales. OTOH, Smith is proven against better opposition. I'm not sure what Eddie will do. David Lyons is going well at blindside and is only going to get better with experience. I suppose it's back to one replacing the other in the second half.

It would be rather unfair. Okay his kicking game wasn’t hot but nor was he at fault for the Cohen score –

Given the circumstances, Cohen wasn't going to be stopped. He took the ball at speed and stepped. Latham just has stinkers occasionally. His kicking is usually powerful and accurate.

Even so a fine and a stern talking to might have seemed more appropriate to me.

He had the stern talking to last time. And it was the same root cause last time - getting on the turps and sleeping in.

The latter. He gave a second interview to your media and they led him right where they wanted him.

The man is a professional. Professionals know how to deal with the media. I think the reality is that he has a petty streak that he finds it very hard to contain. His pettiness even extended to declining to talk about the Wallabies' performance. He said he would leave that to Eddie. Eddie gladly praised the England team. It's a post-match ritual observed by every other coach.

Woodwards infamous press conference – AFTER the game. See the difference? How is Woodward intimidating a referee after a match?

AFTER the ABs match, BEFORE the Wallabies match.

None at all. Lets hope he respects France by playing the man though or it might come back to haunt him.

He's got this match, then four Tri-Nations matches to sort out his team before the WRC. I think that's his priority. Although, having missed last week, McCaw will probably play this week.

The Bookies favourites are still the ABs. I’m not arguing to be honest –although my personal pick is still the Wallabies. Everything looks set against Australia and we all suspect that is when they play best.

They lift when the odd are against them. But it doesn't matter how far you lift if your front row isn't competitive. You just try very hard and still lose.

So Clive being rude about Eddie bothers you?

It has nothing to do with Eddie. It's the sheer pettiness and churlishness. It's the winning with bad grace. And declining to talk about the Wallabies' performance topped the lot.

It’s unfortunate, but frankly I blame your hacks for urging him on.

I say again, the man is a professional. Or supposed to be.

And can I ask – have you heard any of the players saying anything negative about their opponents after Saturday? I would be hugely surprised – it’s something Jonno sets the tone on (for all his temperament faults he is almost never negative about opponents post match). The worst I heard was Greenwoods Dads army revenge plan.

That was exactly my point about the England players displaying the class that Woodward proved he lacks.

[Havak]

The ABs are warming up, and from what I was reading, they've left a few of their better players at home.

Six I think - including two of the first choice back row forwards. The ABs should exploit that nicely.

Bath, I bet.

I’m thinking Wasps – something keeps saying ‘London’ to me. I could be wrong (as usual).

It does happen to people who suddenly confront mortality, you know.

It’s a sensible argument – one will watch him for any signs of new pedantry next time out.

Smith had done it against the lesser Ireland and Wales.

I could have sworn Smithy didn’t feature against Wales.

Yes, Lyons looks promising.

He had the stern talking to last time. And it was the same root cause last time - getting on the turps and sleeping in.

I admire the stand. I’m just surprised by it that’s all. An Aussie coach making a decision to the detriment of the sporting perspective. Eddie has hidden depth.

His pettiness even extended to declining to talk about the Wallabies' performance.

Did he? Well if that’s true it is indeed unforgiveable.

Eddie’s praise might look good in print. On TV it was the same old Eddie – that sarcastic smile fixed on his face and eyes that scream “none of this is sincere” at you.

But at least he observed the form.

And I guess England have done what they always seem to do – provide the Aussies with another hate figure ready for October.

You are slightly wrong by the way – the current Bok incumbent does not always praise opponents either – and Laporte is too busy threatening his boys with the guillotine to find time to praise opponents.

AFTER the ABs match, BEFORE the Wallabies match.

But only showing features of ABs play. It therefore only implied that the Wallabies were also as guilty as sin.

He's got this match, then four Tri-Nations matches to sort out his team before the WRC.

One loss to you boys and he’ll mix and match everything again. What both your sides probably need now is stability.

But it doesn't matter how far you lift if your front row isn't competitive. You just try very hard and still lose.

To be fair I tried to think of something the coal face did well – and couldn’t. I’m afraid Noriega in particular looks a spent force to me. Are there no alternatives? Dunning?

I say again, the man is a professional. Or supposed to be.

Clive, if guilty as accused, has been very naughty and let us down. I just want to be absolutely sure that selective editing by your media isn’t at work here.

And the absolute quickest of scans of the BBC website turns this up from his post match comments on the Aussies:

“They know how to peak at the right time, they're the team to beat come the World Cup”

Hardly the rudest thing I have heard if not specifically in reference to the game itself?

Has this storm come from his interview with 7? I would suggest that lacks too much credibility unless you saw it live. I don’t trust them at all with a VT edit (yes from Lions days).

But I am on the other hand pleased the players have kept it totally polite and low key all down the line.

Greenwood by the way gets married in a fortnight and when the BBC interviewed them from Perth this morning (our time – they are checking out the city, ground and hotel for later in the year) he explained that he and most of the boys were on a two week stag! They may turn up for training looking like beer barrels.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
I’d love to see us codemn the Boks to face the ABs in the second round myself.

I would say it's almost a certainty.

Are you trying to offend Tamerlin Caligastia? Even now France offer more to you than the boks will.

Perhaps...I will have to see if the Boks can beat Argentina this weekend before I decide.

Leaving the Boks aside, Australia are still a step up from France right now.