Chinese Man Gets Silicosis From Inhaling Lucky Charms

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How come whenever people bring up Western companies like Nike and such exploiting workers in developing countries, we hear "That's the way capitalism works!" and other such excuses from the right, but here they instantly jump on the Chinese government (which I am no fan of, believe me), blaming them for thid guys woes?

I don't know. Even western exploitation companies know to supply their workers with something called a "DUSTMASK". Granted that and the 1 or 2 replacements spanning one's career might cost a whopping $2.79 a worker - I guess that's where we have to be sympathetic

[Zylka]

Originally posted by mindseye
This is a key point often overlooked by the western press. 2003 China is not the same as 2003 USA. China is in the midst of a change that the west went through long ago, comparisons need to keep this in mind. I applaud the reporter for including this reference, few such stories do.

Yet 2003 China is not 1850 USA. China is not in the 19th century chimney sweep era, rather one where they have MASSIVE infrastructure - including superhighways, mass transit, looming skyscrapers, and the same trivial gadgets consumed all over the world. I don't much care how little of these things they can produce - but if they can construct them to the capacity claimed, maybe a little bit of that production could be sacrificed to buy rare treasures such as dustmasks. Don't stop me there in naming other examples!

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You have other problems, such as Enron and MCI Worldcom.

Yes, except these smokescreen cases have nothing to do with working hundreds of thousands of your desperate people to death EVERY YEAR - in simply saving enough to keep a few of those semi precious stone necklaces, etc. yourselves

[mindseye]

You have other problems, such as Enron and MCI Worldcom.

Apples and oranges.

The Enrons and Worldcoms are rare indeed when compared to what is normal operating procedure at their Chinese counterparts (i.e major Chinese corporations). He11, even Beijing admits that most major Chinese corporations are cooking their books.

AS far as sweatshops and labor exploitation is concernced, you will certainly find it in the US as well, but it is minute in comparison with the problems in China, where this is quite common. And again, at least laborers in the US can resort to the courts and the media.

There are some lawyers do pro bono work.

And end up ... arrested! That's what usually happens, anyway. Most recent example: residents of Shanghai who lost their homes to a corrupt developer. Six households found a lawyer to take up their complaint with the city gov't. The lawyer was immediately arrested for "revealing state secrets." The "secrets" were documents proving that corrupt city officials had cut the developer a sweetheart deal (in return for a kickback, of course).

The makers of Lucky Charms are giving their business to companies that provide super cheap labor in unhealthy conditions, and they don't bear any responsibility for this?

I agree, but in this case it's not an American company, it's a domestic Chinesecompany, "Lucky Gems".

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
There is another thing I want to point out. So you have, now and then, a businessman who cuts corners to make even bigger profits. So what? You cannot draw any conclusions from an isolated example. Don't tell me the same crap doesn't happen in the US, Japan, or anywhere else, DaShi.

We should make a game out of this. You get a point for each post Urban Ranger makes comparing the US in every non-US thread you start. Two points, if the thread is about China.

4 points for me today.

Now on to serious matters.

Mindseye,

Unfortunately, most of the stories printed about any country are usually negative. If they're not, then they are often boring and make for poor thread topics. Of course, there are good ones. Canada's legalizing gay marriages for example. But China hasn't come up with anything like this. In short, this is all I have to work with. Plus, making people aware of these issues is important, especially for China, which has demonstrated that they will do little for human welfare unless foreign pressure pushes them to, it is cost effective, or a revolution or riot will start. This is one of the good points about China's rise as a world power. It makes other countries more interested in them. The Chinese hate this, but they need it. When I was in China, all I heard was that China would be a superpower without making all the mistakes that the West did. However, that is not the case. Hopefully, with pressure China will develop the systems to help curtail human rights abuses there. Until then, people need to know. However, the next time I come across a more positive article about China, I'll be sure to post it.

Oh, and I like to get UR riled up by these threads. But it is losing its sport as of late.

[mindseye]

Yet 2003 China is not 1850 USA. China is not in the 19th century chimney sweep era, rather one where they have MASSIVE infrastructure - including superhighways

Agreed, you can't really compare 2003 China with anything! Parts of the country are as "modern" (or even more modern) than cities in the west, while other places really are like 1850, except maybe with crude electricity and tv. In Shanghai, people owning new BMWs live on the same block as people who have no indoor plumbing.

The problems like those at the Lucky Gems company are found in the enormous gap between the most and least developed parts of China (which can co-exist within a neighborhood). Hopefully they will become less common as the benefits of development ripple through the society -- and as the legal system develops.

China is modernizing at a historically unprecedented speed, but there is still a very great deal of Old China where this kind of abuse can flourish. It tears your heart out to see it.

[mindseye]

Unfortunately, most of the stories printed about any country are usually negative. If they're not, then they are often boring and make for poor thread topics

I can understand that. I recently started a thread about what I thought were some really exciting political and press developments, it died an immediate death.

"Encouraging Political, Press Developments in PRC "
(http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=89138)

Maybe I should try to use catchier thread titles.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
Apples and oranges.

Not so. They are both manifestations of the same thing: namely companies breaking laws for their own gain.

Originally posted by mindseye
The Enrons and Worldcoms are rare indeed when compared to what is normal operating procedure at their Chinese counterparts (i.e major Chinese corporations). He11, even Beijing admits that most major Chinese corporations are cooking their books.

Cite?

Originally posted by mindseye
And end up ... arrested! That's what usually happens, anyway. Most recent example: residents of Shanghai who lost their homes to a corrupt developer. Six households found a lawyer to take up their complaint with the city gov't. The lawyer was immediately arrested for "revealing state secrets." The "secrets" were documents proving that corrupt city officials had cut the developer a sweetheart deal (in return for a kickback, of course).

That's one case.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DaShi
We should make a game out of this. You get a point for each post Urban Ranger makes comparing the US in every non-US thread you start. Two points, if the thread is about China.

How about 10 points for each negative thread DaShi starts about China, and -100 points for each post he makes that is critical of the US?

Snooze.

[DaShi]

Ooh, clever retorts.

I admit, I was laughing before I opened this thread.

2 more points. I'm up to 6.

[mindseye]

Not so. They are both manifestations of the same thing: namely companies breaking laws for their own gain.

Sorry, apples and oranges. There is a difference in the type of gain. In the US, the management of a few large, influential companies cooked the books to benefit themselves financially. In China, small business owners frequently imperil their employees' health or lives for small financial gain (the subject of this thread, ahem). No one that I know of lost a limb from Enron's collapse.

Cite?

Unfortunately I cannot recall the source. It was in an article comparing corporate accounting practices. The estimates were that something like 5% of large US corporations were cooking their books (appalling in and of itself), while Beijing's own estimates for the same were something like 75% of China's largest corporations. If you've ever done business in China, you may conclude that 75% is probably much lower than the actual figure.

That's one case.

Enron and MCI Worldcom

To use your style of debate, I suppose I could respond "That's just two cases".

Instead, I'll offer a real response: if you don't believe that the arrested Shanghai lawyer represents business as usual in China, then you don't know much about life in contemporary China (have you spent any time at all in the mainland?). In the PRC, the police (like most officials) are for sale. From my experiences living here, this is utterly standard operating procedure and common knowledge. He11, I have experienced this myself, firsthand! The cops here don't usually bother you, but step on some official's corruption pipeline, and you'll be dealing with the police very, very soon.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by DaShi
Oh, and I like to get UR riled up by these threads. But it is losing its sport as of late.

Shooting fish in a barrel does loose its appeal after awhile.

[mindseye]

Oh, and I like to get UR riled up by these threads. But it is losing its sport as of late.

In all fairness, I think he can be a very capable debater, although I think China threads pose a special challenge (hey, we all have our emotional buttons which can be pressed).

I, for one, was very disappointed with his response in the recent Tiananmen Square thread. I put a lot of research time into those posts (it took hours for me to find on-line photos, then resize and re-format them). UR made a spirited cameo appearance then bailed. That's why I don't want to spend hours tracking down that stat on Beijing's estimate of accounting fraud.

Not too late to respond to that Tiananmen thread, UR!

[DaShi]

I'll agree. When it comes to computers and math, he's quite good. I advised him to stay a way from these kind of topics. For a while, I thought he would. A shame. I suppose I should take it easier on him.

[Brundlefly]

Look, can we get serious here for a moment? Does this mean I'll have to give up snorting Capn Crunch? I don't want to get sick or anything..