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  • #16
    U.S. And Iraq Go Way Back
    NEW YORK, Dec. 31, 2002


    Newly released documents show that U.S. officials, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, played a leading role in building up Iraq's military in the 1980s when Iraq was using chemical weapons, a newspaper reports.

    It was Rumsfeld, now defense secretary and then a special presidential envoy, whose December 1983 meeting with Saddam Hussein led to the normalization of ties between Washington and Baghdad, according to the Washington Post.

    The cozy relationship was an effort to build a regional bulwark against America's enemies in Iran.

    The newspaper says a review of a large tranche of government documents reveals that the administrations of President Reagan and the first President Bush both authorized providing Iraq with intelligence and logistical support, and okayed the sale of dual use items — those with military and civilian applications — that included chemicals and germs, even anthrax and bubonic plague.

    Foreign affairs experts are split on whether the policy made sense given the different dynamics of an earlier era when the Soviet Union was still a player in the Middle East, when Iranian fundamentalism was unchecked by the current efforts toward reform, and when Saddam was already a valued friend of European U.S. allies like the French.

    Vital American interests were also at stake. The U.S. assistance to Iraq came only after Iran gained the upper hand in their eight-year war, and looked poised to threaten the Persian Gulf states, Kuwait and even Saudi Arabia — key suppliers of oil to the United States.

    Kenneth Pollack, a one-time CIA analyst and author of a current book advocating war with Iraq, told the Post, "It was a horrible mistake then, but we have got it right now. My fellow [CIA] analysts and I were warning at the time that Hussein was a very nasty character. We were constantly fighting the State Department."

    But former U.S. ambassador to Baghdad David Newton contended in a Post interview, "Fundamentally, the policy was justified. We were concerned that Iraq should not lose the war with Iran, because that would have threatened Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. Our long-term hope was that Hussein's government would become less repressive and more responsible."

    The U.S. removed Iraq from its list of states that sponsor terrorism in 1982, and as Iran made gains on the battlefield, the Reagan administration decided to pass intelligence to Iraq.

    The policy to do this was captured in a November 1983 National Security Directive that is still classified, but apparently stated that U.S. policy was to do "whatever was necessary and legal" to stop Iran from winning.

    At the same time, there were multiple reports Iraq was using chemical weapons to repulse the Iranian advance; one State Department official told Secretary of State George Shultz that Iraq was engaging in "almost daily use of (chemical weapons)" against Iranian troops.

    This policy led to several Rumsfeld visits to Baghdad, as a private citizen working as a presidential envoy.

    According to State Department report, at his first meeting with Saddam, Rumsfeld told Hussein the U.S. wanted a full resumption of relations. While the defense secretary has since said he warned Iraq about the use of chemical weapons, notes of the meeting do not show this. Rumseld apparently did mention the chemical weapons concern in a meeting with an aide to Saddam.

    A 1995 affidavit by former National Security Agency official Howard Teicher, obtained by the Post, claimed that the U.S. "actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required."

    Teicher claimed that the CIA supplied Iraq with cluster bombs through a Chilean company. However, German and UK firms sold more weapons to Iraq than U.S. arms companies, the Post reports.

    Congressional investigations after the Gulf War revealed that the Commerce Department had licensed sales of biological agents, including anthrax, and insecticides, which could be used in chemical weapons, to Iraq.

    When Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds in 1987, there was anger in Congress and the White House. But a memo in 1988 from Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy stated that "The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is … important to our long-term political and economic objectives."

    "We believe that economic sanctions will be useless or counterproductive to influence the Iraqis," the Post quoted the memo as saying.
    from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...le534798.shtml

    the administrations of President Reagan and the first President Bush both authorized providing Iraq with intelligence and logistical support, and okayed the sale of dual use items — those with military and civilian applications — that included chemicals and germs, even anthrax and bubonic plague.
    Congressional investigations after the Gulf War revealed that the Commerce Department had licensed sales of biological agents, including anthrax, and insecticides, which could be used in chemical weapons, to Iraq.
    a memo in 1988 from Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy stated that "The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is … important to our long-term political and economic objectives."
    This is from CBSnews... not the Guardian, mind you.
    To us, it is the BEAST.

    Comment


    • #17
      Funny how my sources say otherwise. Who should I trust? The Federation of American Scientists? Which being a respect organization of geopolitical analysts and scientists.. or a news site?

      But you are denying the FACT that the US was the single greatest arms dealer to Saddam.
      They weren't.



      "(UNSCOM) reported that the Iraq air force has tried to modify L-29 trainers and other fixed-wing types as UAVs which could carry chemical and biological warfare agents.
      UNSCOM was responsible for cataloguing and removing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capability.
      Iraq is subject to an arms embargo which makes spares acquisition difficult, although rumors suggest some aid is flowing from Russia. Today's air force is spearheaded by Mirage F1EQa, MiG-21s and MiG-23s of various types with a few MiG-25s in support. Aircraft evacuated to Iran include MiG-23s, MiG-29s, Il-76s, Su-20/22s, Su-25s, Mirage F1EQs and one of the two Adnans.
      It is likely that the entire Tu-16 Badger fleet was destroyed during the 1991 conflict. Remaining MiG-29s are apparently in long-term storage."

      The L-29s are of particular significance.. they are Russian aircraft... fitted with drop tanks for biological/chemical weapons.

      I don't have the specifics for the army but it was entirely
      Russian built consisting of only T-72s and T-80s. The artillery was completely of Russian origin aswell. There was no american hardware in the Iraqi Army, Airforce or Navy.
      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

      Comment


      • #18
        Oooo, quote war!
        (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
        (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
        (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

        Comment


        • #19
          This link is to a British site that details, using US documents, the exact relationship between the US government and Iraq during the 1980's.



          notable quotes from the website
          the CIA began in 1984 secretly to give Iraq intelligence that Iraq uses to "calibrate" its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops
          The Defense Department’s (DOD) Under Secretary for Trade Security Policy, Stephen Bryen, informed the Commerce Department’s (CD) Assistant Secretary for Trade Administration in November that intelligence linked the Saad 16 research center with ballistic missile development
          U.S. intelligence reported in 1991 that the U.S. helicopters sold to Iraq in 1983 were used in 1988 to spray Kurds with chemicals
          So let's make a list for those of you keeping score at home.

          The US:
          1. Provided the materials to make chemical and biological weapons to Iraq
          2. The US provided the materials to make a ballistic missile program for Iraq
          3. The US supplied the helicopters used in the chemical attacks against the Kurds.

          And this is just the beginning.
          To us, it is the BEAST.

          Comment


          • #20
            There was no american hardware in the Iraqi Army, Airforce or Navy.
            Sorry Fez, US government documents say otherwise.
            To us, it is the BEAST.

            Comment


            • #21
              Sava, the US probably did provide intelligence. But Iran could not win that war.

              But the US did not provide any weapons.. for use with biological weapons, chemical weapons or what not.

              I proved this with my source. There were no helicopters used for biological weapons or chemical weapons. There was an attempt to make a MI-8 have a drop tank but that didn't work out. The Iraqis ended up using L-29s.

              Sava it is no use denying it when I provided the exact numbers of the Iraqi Airforce.

              The United States did not provide weapons for the ballistic missile program, actually that was also the Russians.
              For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

              Comment


              • #22
                By October 1989, when all international banks had cut off loans to Iraq, President Bush signed National Security Directive (NSD) 26 mandating closer links with Iraq and $1 billion in agricultural loan guarantees. These guarantees freed for Iraq hard cash to continue to buy and develop WMDs, and are suspended only on 2 August 1990, the same day that Iraq invaded Kuwait. Richard Haass, then a National Security Council official, and Robert Kimmitt, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, also told the Commerce Department (CD) not to single Iraq out for dual-use technology restrictions
                from http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html
                To us, it is the BEAST.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sava


                  Sorry Fez, US government documents say otherwise.
                  You are so full fo ****.. I provide a source that provides the exact numbers on the Iraqi Airforce.. all of it is Russian and French, and you still deny it.

                  May I quote it again for your ignoring my quotations:

                  "Following Desert Fox, the UN Special Comission (UNSCOM) reported that the Iraq air force has tried to modify L-29 trainers and other fixed-wing types as UAVs which could carry chemical and biological warfare agents.
                  UNSCOM was responsible for cataloguing and removing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capability.
                  Iraq is subject to an arms embargo which makes spares acquisition difficult, although rumors suggest some aid is flowing from Russia. Today's air force is spearheaded by Mirage F1EQa, MiG-21s and MiG-23s of various types with a few MiG-25s in support. Aircraft evacuated to Iran include MiG-23s, MiG-29s, Il-76s, Su-20/22s, Su-25s, Mirage F1EQs and one of the two Adnans.
                  It is likely that the entire Tu-16 Badger fleet was destroyed during the 1991 conflict. Remaining MiG-29s are apparently in long-term storage. "
                  For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    But the US did not provide any weapons.. for use with biological weapons, chemical weapons or what not.
                    The United States did not provide weapons for the ballistic missile program


                    Fez, seriously, you are entitled to your opinions concerning the war on Iraq. But you lose any credibility you had when your assertions are not only wrong, but are proved wrong by US Government documents. How can you sit there and continue to say this when you are wrong?
                    From July 18 to 1 August (Iraq invaded Kuwait on 2 August) the Bush Administration approved $4.8 million in advanced technology product sales to Iraq. End-buyers included MIMI and Saad 16. Mimi was identified in 1988 as a facility for chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs. In 1989 Saad was linked to CW and NW development

                    The Bush Administration approved $695,000 worth of advanced data transmission devices the day before Iraq invades Kuwait.
                    America was supplying Iraq with weapons and supplies all the way up until the day before Saddam invaded Iraq.
                    To us, it is the BEAST.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sava





                      Fez, seriously, you are entitled to your opinions concerning the war on Iraq. But you lose any credibility you had when your assertions are not only wrong, but are proved wrong by US Government documents. How can you sit there and continue to say this when you are wrong?
                      I really don't think the US government successfully transferred any equipment through before the first Gulf War. Sure they may have been an agreement. But can you explain why the Iraqi airforce is entirely of Russian/French origin?

                      I ****ING PROVIDED SOURCES THAT SAY THIS.

                      America was supplying Iraq with weapons and supplies all the way up until the day before Saddam invaded Iraq.
                      You mean Kuwait.

                      No they Americans were not supplying Iraq with weapons. It seems like even if they were these weapons did not make it in time. Also you haven't explain why the Iraqi military is entirely Russian/French built.. yet the Americans were supplying weapons?
                      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        You are so full fo ****..
                        That's nice, you are resorting to personal attacks.
                        I provide a source that provides the exact numbers on the Iraqi Airforce.. all of it is Russian and French, and you still deny it.
                        Unfortunately, you are talking about the status of the Iraqi military in 1999. I am talking about from 1979-1991. And I didn't deny those figures at all. In fact, they are true... just irrelevant and unrelated to the discussion.
                        To us, it is the BEAST.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sava
                          The Russians did give Iraq weapons Fez. Nobody is denying that. But you are denying the FACT that the US was the single greatest arms dealer to Saddam.
                          I don't deny that the US supplied arms to Iraq, but that "fact" is simply false.



                          The USSR was, by far, the biggest arms dealer to Iraq by a wide margin, followed by France, China and Czechoslovakia.
                          "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sava
                            That's nice, you are resorting to personal attacks.
                            Unfortunately, you are talking about the status of the Iraqi military in 1999. I am talking about from 1979-1991. And I didn't deny those figures at all. In fact, they are true... just irrelevant and unrelated to the discussion.
                            My source did provide a outline of what Iraq had from 1979-1991, also entirely Russian. Did you know MiG-21s and MiG-23s were the spearhead of the Iraqi Airforce in that time span?

                            No you are irrelevant to this discussion.
                            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Fez, go to the website and read it for yourself... I'm not going to continue to debate with you until you stop with the personal attacks and profanity.



                              Not only have I listed a good sources, that source also has links to where you can read the OFFICIAL US DOCUMENTS detailing their findings.
                              To us, it is the BEAST.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Edan


                                I don't deny that the US supplied arms to Iraq, but that "fact" is simply false.



                                The USSR was, by far, the biggest arms dealer to Iraq by a wide margin, followed by France, China and Czechoslovakia.
                                Thank you.

                                Shut up, Sava.
                                For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                                Comment

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