Why Capitalists are Capitalists...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


It's your job to show us the forest. Quite frankly, you have done poorly today. Come back when you have an argument that can stand up.

Actually, it's the other way around.

You guys want to impose your system. You have three ways to do it:

superior persuasion by propaganda (the tried and unfortunately not true in any sense method);

superior persuasion by demonstration (guess you'd have to make it work first, failing that, there's just the standard whine about reactionaries and counterrevolutionary elements);

superior persuasion by firepower (probably your best chance, but best get some range time in first and train your targets, er, revolutionaries)

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Velociryx
MtG....I think it's hopeless.

They're right, we're wrong, and "The Man" is out to get us all.

Meet you at the bread line later?

-=Vel=-

Naah, they'll all be at the bread line *****ing about how unfair life is.

Let's meet at the club and have some good brandy and seegars and plot how to exploit the rabble best, instead.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Actually, it's the other way around.

You guys want to impose your system. You have three ways to do it:

Actually it has more to do with economic realities.

[Velociryx]

-=Vel=-

PS: You guys better watch it....there's no telling HOW many ways we'll come up with to exploit the masses....

[Velociryx]

Yeah...let's talk about economic realities for a moment.

Let's see now.....where are the capitalist-oriented economies on the "global food chain?"

Oh....taking up all the top spots are they? Hmmm.....

And let's look at communist countries, and see where they are on the "global food chain."

Go on....keep looking.....

THAT is the reality.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

You guys will probably be in the bread line too.

[Velociryx]

No...actually, I'd start a bakery....sell my bread for a few cents more than you can get it in yonder breadline....now you have a choice. Wait all day to maybe get some stale bread at the breadline, or c'mon over and have a loaf.....

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
No...actually, I'd start a bakery....sell my bread for a few cents more than you can get it in yonder breadline....now you have a choice. Wait all day to maybe get some stale bread at the breadline, or c'mon over and have a loaf.....

-=Vel=-

Bread will be 1 cent a loaf. This highlights your misunderstanding about how economics works. Why do you think that you will be selling bread and everyone else buying it? Anyone can sell bread because it doesn't require capital investment. The thing is you can't make any money doing it, because of the competition.

[Velociryx]

Ummm....if there is a bread line, it's cos there's not enough supply to meet demand.

If I start a bakery, I increase the supply.

Clearly, the demand is there, else there'd not be people standing in line waiting for it.

I can charge whatever the market will bear, and people will pay it (I mean, c'mon....your choices are....stand in line all day, or pony up and pay a little more and get the heck home--on the assumption that you have better stuff to do with your day than standing in line for bread).

See?

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Yes, but the supply may be hampered by a lack of grain, in which case you won't be able to start a bakery.

[Velociryx]

Then that's my problem, isn't it? And I, as an enterprising young CAPITALIST, will find an alternate supply.

-=Vel=-

[JohnT]

"To this I could add the problems of human alienation*, human spacial organization*, racism*, heterosexism***, agism**, pollution*, overuse of resources*, etc. The world could be managed much more efficiently by direct, democratic oversight, rather than the anarchic "take what you can grab" system we have now. "

*Problems that existed long before "capitalism" or "communism" did.
** A problem caused by Capitalism in the fact that under it people live longer, healthier lives,
*** Huh?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You see Vel, your main point is a strawman. As I pointed out, it isn't that capitalism is inherently unfair (although that has turned out to be the practice). Capitalism could be managed in such a way as to ensure that only by your merits and nothing else, could you succeed. Then perhaps the world would be ruled by Velociryx's and MtGs {snip}

Another aspect of this is perhaps that we loathe politics, or at least politics to that extent. I could return to the familial stomping grounds, minimally ticket punch at the local level and renew ties with kin, and in the next two or three cycles have a pretty damn good shot at getting elected to Congress. The question is why would I want to?

The point is, capitalism punishes society for being too productive, it wastes capital and labor on unnecessary endevers,

Yes, and Soviet productivity was legendary. Let the state decide what is "unnecessary" - much better than the market.

and it periodically even requires the destruction of societies and the murder of millions of humans to go on.

USSR and PRC, anyone? Oh, but that was in response to reactionaries and counterrevolutionary elements. The biggest difference in your chosen system is that anti-system agitators like you would be off counting trees if they're lucky, dead if not. In this system, we tolerate competing ideas.

In fact, tens of millions are human lives are sacrificed each year on the altar of the market.

Nice rhetoric, but in a world of 6.2 billion people, tens of millions die. Abolishing the market isn't likely to create immortality.

For the rich and powerful, we withhold life saving medicines and subsidize food at prices which drive people out of the market.

Let's pick someplace nice, like Congo, Liberia, Somalia or birthrates in Sub-saharan Africa in general. Do you think giving people free medicine is going to cure everything? Medical care and humanitarian issues in the worst of the third world needs to be addressed, but that isn't market failure primarily. Nice to take an enormously complex problem, and rather than contribute to actively solving it (a la WHO and other organizations), just use their misery as a propaganda tool to blame capitalism.

We overthrow governments that threat the property rights of the rich and powerful.

Like communist and so-called socialists don't, in the guise of "fraternal socialism"

It's not about redistribution of wealth, it's about creating a new set of opportunities for everyone.

And the only solution you advocate for that is state takeover of markets and wealth redistribution. It doesn't matter how you package it.

[Velociryx]

As much fun as I'm having here, I've got some calls to make. Gotta phone some friends and see if they'll be willing to be exploited next weekend for the big move....

-=Vel=-

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Actually it has more to do with economic realities.

I thought the term was "historical inevitability"