realistic spaceship combat

[The Mad Monk]

Just wondering -- if there is no shockwave, what does transmit the energy generated?

[The Mad Monk]

Come to think of it...how do young stars manage to push all debris from themselves?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Colon


But you don't need fuel to keep an object moving, only to make it accelerate. (whatever the means of propulsion is) And since it will keep moving, it is bound to hit something at some time.

What I mean is that a missle is going to have to have some sort of fuse, which is going to require some sort of power unit (assuming nuclear) to tell it to explode. Otherwise it's just going to go splat, like so many nuclear bombs have done in airplane crashes.

Kinetic weapons of course are just going to hit stuff, but I doubt that many of them will be all that large, certainly not as large as the asteroids that smack into the atmosphere regularly. With no atmosphere of course, a lucky hit could be bad, but the odds are infinitesimal IMO.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Hi folks. Fascinating thread. For those who fancy trying some of these ideas, there's a family of games (old timers will know about it) called Elite and Frontier. The last version is called First Encounters and is available as shareware from the author (who won the copyright back in court. Ming, don't go cussing me).

Download PC versions here

You will also need JJFFE (or similar) to run Frontier First Encounters on Windows or Linux systems.


Get your JJFFEWIN OR Linux here

They are very compact games and run on the desktop. Elite 4 is under construction, supposedly with multiplay.

Happy shooting.

EDIT: Elite was heavily influenced by an OLDDDD RPG called Traveller - it's pre D&D, that's how old. Megatrav came out (late 80s?) with an updated ship design system that was even sillier. Honestly, a naval architect friend of mine couldn't believe the amount of errors in the rules.

I remember D&D coming out in 1973, and Traveller coming out in about 1975. Was there an earlier version that I missed, perhaps pre-GDW?

Anyway, Traveller was a great game for its time. I'm kind of suprised that it hasn't caught on more in the online RP world. I see (and play) a lot of Engarde! (another GDW RP game from about 1975) out there, but Traveller seems to have disappeared.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Cruddy


This is quite true, but the problem with kinetic weapons is that they are inherently "dumb". They won't make a course change if the target takes evasive action. It's also difficult to calculate the correct trajectory if the relative speed of firer and target is in the several KMs per second range.

It may seem impossible to detect such a small object at a meaningful distance, but even current battlefield artillery radar can detect small birds or even butterflies at a distance of several hundred metres. Not terribly useful when you're on the lookout for incoming mortar and LCG shells, but I hope you take my point.

This is why I mentioned the need for terminal guidance or short ranges for kinetic projectiles. They will need an active propulsion system to maneuver, as fins (as used by smartillery shells) will be of no use.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sandman
Regarding stealth spacecraft:

Whilst they may have a role to play, it will probably be limited for the following reasons :

Stealth coating is very expensive. The cost of the ship would rise by a huge amount, particularly if it had a high surface area design, like a needle or a disc.

Stealth coating requires a lot of maintainence to remain efficient, meaning that stealth ships will need a larger logistics train to operate effectively. On long missions, the stealth coating could become eroded by micro-meteorites, rendering it useless.

A stealthed ship will absord most incoming radiation in order to remain undetected. This will create problems with dispensing with heat. One solution would be internal refridgeration systems that can absorb a limited amount of heat, until they have to be expunged, this would be the equivalent of rigging for silent running. Another solution would be external radiators that can be deployed on the surface of the ship to dump excess heat on a continuous basis. For stealth ships, these could be directed away from probable areas of enemy observation.

Finally, a stealth ship would be very vulnerable to lasers.

This is why you would want to only stealth the pointy end of a needleship. This reduces cross-section and allows all of these weaknesses to be dealt with as cheaply as possible. The trick is going to be keeping it pointing in the right direction, something that won't be all that difficult for an attack on an enemy base, planet etc., or for reacting to data forwarded by remote sensors.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Cruddy


A stealth vehicle invisible to IR sensors IN SPACE????

That means the whole ship has to be about absolute zero - very chilly for the crew!

I honestly don't see how you could have stealth in IR frequencies. Radio yes, light yes, but heat? That's the product of just about every physical process.

Anyone got any bright ideas on this?

If you have enough energy you can re-arrange the heat in your ship so that it stays inside while the cold is pushed to the outside of the ship. This would make you harder to discern at longer ranges, but there is no simple way of cheating the system. Chemical means might be able to cool the ship in the short run, but they will be expended.

[dannubis]

there are no shock waves as on earth after a nuclear blast in space, but i can imagine that if suddenly several kilotons of energy hit your ship, the effects will be quite devastating ...

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Sikander


I remember D&D coming out in 1973, and Traveller coming out in about 1975. Was there an earlier version that I missed, perhaps pre-GDW?

Anyway, Traveller was a great game for its time. I'm kind of suprised that it hasn't caught on more in the online RP world. I see (and play) a lot of Engarde! (another GDW RP game from about 1975) out there, but Traveller seems to have disappeared.

I still have the small, black box, with all the booklets.

I also have Megatraveller; I had a lot of fun designing ships under that system, after I made some suitable adjustments.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Sikander


I remember D&D coming out in 1973, and Traveller coming out in about 1975. Was there an earlier version that I missed, perhaps pre-GDW?

Anyway, Traveller was a great game for its time. I'm kind of suprised that it hasn't caught on more in the online RP world....

IIRC, Traveller was born out of Marc Miller's Vietnam service. So although it was published later than D&D, the game was being play tested years before "fantasy rules for table top gaming" (D&D) entered Gary Gygax's head.

Traveller is very hard to referee well. It's much more open ended and flexible than fantasy RPGs, which could explain why it has had zero impact on the online scene. Sensible developers tend to go for the art of the possible, rather than the most imaginative games The solo play Megatrav games of the 90s were - well, average at best.

Wouldn't GDW would sue anybody's arse off if they tried it?

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by dannubis
there are no shock waves as on earth after a nuclear blast in space, but i can imagine that if suddenly several kilotons of energy hit your ship, the effects will be quite devastating ...

There is no atmosphere to propagate the blast wave - but there is also no atmosphere to soak up the radiation. You get full load, minus inverse squared law.

[The Mad Monk]

Also, there's this little thing called "radiation pressure".

About GDW: I don't think they matter anymore.

Steve Jackson owns Traveller now.

[Cruddy]

Does he really? About time I heard something new on Apolyton. I'm glad GDW bit the dust, they were complete ****heads to a very good friend of mine.

Still - lot of design work to get an official computer game license.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Just wondering -- if there is no shockwave, what does transmit the energy generated?

You get all sorts of radiations - fast neutrons, photons, EM waves, x-rays, etc., etc.

As for young stars, they are just throwing out matter and energy. The energy must be in radiation form, though, since there's no medium to transmit it.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Traveller is very hard to referee well. It's much more open ended and flexible than fantasy RPGs, which could explain why it has had zero impact on the online scene. Sensible developers tend to go for the art of the possible, rather than the most imaginative games The solo play Megatrav games of the 90s were - well, average at best.

The big complaint against Traveller is that the game is sterile. Once your character musters out, he or she is fixed. There's no growth whatsoever. It's the first sci-fi RPG, and unfortunately, the worst one.