political parties have terrible effects

[johncmcleod]

I hate having political parties, and I wouldn't mind if they didn't exist in our system. Democracts vote democrat and republicans vote republican. Every time a bill is passed, almost all the republicans vote the same way and almost all the democrats vote the same way. In fact, our representatives sometimes vote against what they believe just for a concession. They will also do whatever they can to keep up the strength of their political party. For example, some of the liberal democrats who were for civil rights wouldn't really push for those rights because if they did, the blacks who weren't allowed to vote would be allowed to and they wouldn't vote for the segragationist democrats representing their state. That would cause the democratic party to lose power. So the liberals wouldn't actually do anything for civil rights, they would just make a bunch of lies about progress and clap their hands at how great the movement was going.

It's much worse with the public. Though you may deny it, most people just vote for the person of their political party. Political parties mask what the leaders are really about. For example, my dad knows a lot about politics but the political party system has masked him just like other Americans. First off, I don't remember him ever opposing something the democrats were for, or ever opposing a decision that a democratic president did, and he always disagrees with stuff that only republicans go for. Another example is the other night, my family watched the movie called The Emperor's Club. The movie dealed with morals in both people and leaders. At the end my dad told us how important it was for our leaders to have good morals. He then talked about how this isn't the case in most politicians, and how it isn't the case especially in George Bush. But then of course he never had a problem with Clinton having the affair and then lying to the nation about it. And many other times he'll agree with a democratic president on one decision he makes but if a republican president does the same thing he'll disagree with it.

In fact, I think it is very possible for American to become Totalitarian because of them. A political party's representatives gradually lean more towards less freedom for the people. If it goes slow the everyone in the party will support them. People especially just go along with their political party on the things that seem small at the time. Over large amounts of time they add up and it could happen, like what Versayen was talking about.

Does anyone agree with me? Or am I forgetting about the good things that political parties bring us?

[Lord Merciless]

Do you have a better solution? Do you want the European system? Or do you prefer the Israeli Knesset?

[Odin]

The problem isn't our political parties per-se, but how they keep other political parties, such as the Greens and Libertarians, from entering power. People are also vote for the two main parties because if, for instance, if a person votes for a green, you are just helping the republicans by not voting for thr democratic opponent. It is sickening.

[St Leo]

Yeah, the European solution is nice.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Odin
The problem isn't our political parties per-se, but how they keep other political parties, such as the Greens and Libertarians, from entering power. People are also vote for the two main parties because if, for instance, if a person votes for a green, you are just helping the republicans by not voting for thr democratic opponent. It is sickening.

My main problem with third parties is that they seem to continually run for president, rather than concentrating on congressional or state seats where they're far more likely to pick up some seats.

I think having one of the houses of congress (or a new third one) were designed proportionally along the lines of parties it might be a good idea, but I don't think have both houses be that way would be a good idea. (just my 2 cents)

[Lord Merciless]

The problem lies how candidates are voted into the parliaments:

Our country is divided up into districts where the winner moves into the congress, even at a distribution such as 34%, 33%, and 33%. It's very hard, if not impossible, to establish a viable third party under such a system.

In Israel, the exact opposite happens. There are no districts there. The representation of parties in the national parliament is purely determined by the percentage each party gets in the election. Without the 5% hurdle, Israeli Knesset is jammed with 30+ parties and endless squablings. Do we want something like that?

I think Germany offers a nice comprise, since they learnt the mistakes from the Weimarer Republic when the Reichstag was put together in a similar as the Israeli Knesset. In Bundestag, half of the members are winners of individual districts and half are determined by the percentage each party gets. Coupled with the 5% hurdle, this system guarantees multiple party representation, but without the mess of splintering.

All the talks about a viable 3rd party in the US are completely useless something is done about our election system.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
All the talks about a viable 3rd party in the US are completely useless something is done about our election system.

I'm glad some poeple see it. I keep reading on this boards that the 3rd parties are not viable because the 2 old parties are much more appealing

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
The problem lies how candidates are voted into the parliaments:

Our country is divided up into districts where the winner moves into the congress, even at a distribution such as 34%, 33%, and 33%. It's very hard, if not impossible, to establish a viable third party under such a system.

In Israel, the exact opposite happens. There are no districts there. The representation of parties in the national parliament is purely determined by the percentage each party gets in the election. Without the 5% hurdle, Israeli Knesset is jammed with 30+ parties and endless squablings. Do we want something like that?

I think Germany offers a nice comprise, since they learnt the mistakes from the Weimarer Republic when the Reichstag was put together in a similar as the Israeli Knesset. In Bundestag, half of the members are winners of individual districts and half are determined by the percentage each party gets. Coupled with the 5% hurdle, this system guarantees multiple party representation, but without the mess of splintering.

All the talks about a viable 3rd party in the US are completely useless something is done about our election system.

This is the case in other countries as well, like ours for example... 5% minimum or no seat in the parliament. There is a catch however.. It's not 5% of our entire population, as Belgium is divided into Flanders and Wallonia... You'll have to get 5% in your part, the parties are not quite the same...

This means that if a party in Flanders manages to get 5%... it only has 5% of a population of 6 million, and not the 10 million Belgians...

teh European system rulez. People sure as hell don't vote for their "side" because otherwise their counterpart would become too powerful.. The thing is there are various parties here, although not too much (like in Israel with their masses of unimportant, small parties)... It means that coalitions are almost never the same here... which is a good way of making sure one party doesn't hold on to power for a too long period. A disadvantage is that even the biggest party here only gets say 25% more or less... But I don't really see it as a disadvantage, because they have to get a coalition partner that serves as a counterweight... the ruling party can't do whatever it wants, unlike in America... Bush ruling all => would be impossible here!

[johncmcleod]

Do you have a better solution? Do you want the European system? Or do you prefer the Israeli Knesset?

How about their aren't any political parties at all? The people just vote for the person who has the best policies.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by johncmcleod

How about their aren't any political parties at all? The people just vote for the person who has the best policies.

Actually, the US system comes the closest to your ideal. European politics are far stronger party based than candidate based. Also, European party organization and discipline is far stronger than ours.

The other difference is that the executive branch in Europe can pretty much do what they want since they have the majority in the legislature 95% of the time. Voting for the legislature is essentially the same as voting for the chief executive.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I keep reading on this boards that the 3rd parties are not viable because the 2 old parties are much more appealing

It's simplistic, but not altogether false. The 2 main parties are LARGE conglomeration of beliefs. When a 3rd party takes too much of the vote, the blob of the party nearest to that view takes over that position, but moderates it. More people find this moderated position more appealing than the radical version the 3rd party was advocating.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Trajanus

But I don't really see it as a disadvantage, because they have to get a coalition partner that serves as a counterweight... the ruling party can't do whatever it wants, unlike in America... Bush ruling all => would be impossible here!

Bush only gets free reign in foreign policies. Domestically, his agenda are less likely to get through. For example, his original 800 billion tax cut has been slashed in half after debates in Congress. Had the Democrats not failed utterly in the last election, his tax cut would not have passed at all.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I keep reading on this boards that the 3rd parties are not viable because the 2 old parties are much more appealing

It's simplistic, but not altogether false. The 2 main parties are LARGE conglomeration of beliefs. When a 3rd party takes too much of the vote, the blob of the party nearest to that view takes over that position, but moderates it. More people find this moderated position more appealing than the radical version the 3rd party was advocating.

If the US changes its voting system to resemble European ones more, there will be guaranteed more parties represented in the Congress. It's not a matter of appeal, but of system. Many people don't vote smaller parties because they know that those parties don't have a chance to be represented.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, that is true... but when you have two large parties, they will take the positions of the smaller ones, or incorporate them into their government. It happens all the time. The bigger party, in the end, wins out.

Even in a parlimentary system, I doubt third parties would get much... maybe 10-15% of the seats at best... and of course that wouldn't be nearly enough to do anything.

The problem is that with a parlimentary system the smaller parties control everything. Think about it this way, the Democrats have 45%, Republicans 45%, Libertarians 6%, and Greens 4%. In this situation, the ones with the MOST power are the Libertarians, who can pick and choose which big party will be in power and of course that party will have to compromise. You have the position that 6% of the populace controls much more than their share of the vote.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by johncmcleod


How about their aren't any political parties at all? The people just vote for the person who has the best policies.

Suppose that Apolyton has elections without political parties, and I become a congressman. Many of my supporters want to add a Simcity forum. Many of Imran's (assume he gets elected) supporters advocate the creation of a WarCraft forum. Both of our supporters like the idea of a HALO forum.

We will see the opportunity for mutual benefit, and I say I'll vote for a WarCraft forum if he votes for a SimCity forum. We introduce a bill that adds forums for all three games.

Sava wants to add a forum dedicated to South Park, and he also supports the SimCity forum idea. We add the South Park forum to our bill, and he promises to vote with us.

Me, Imran, and Sava have formed an alliance, and we get our stuff passed. Our supporters happily vote for our reelection because we helped them get the forums they wanted. People who didn't band together don't get their stuff passed.


The same thing happens with politicians in the US. Maybe even if Imran doesn't support the South Park forum, he'll vote with us anyway because he gets stuff that he wants passed.

If we want to get rid of parties in the US, we need to change the system.