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Well, of course Hitler was a human being, not Satan in persona.
But it belongs as well to the truth to show what he did, why he did it etc., not only what a charismatic leader or complex character he was, or if he had a difficult childhood. The question is - where to draw the line between painting him as pure evil and legitimizing his doings?
One of the things from the Nazi's that always astounds me most was one of Himmlers speeches to a gathering of SS men, were he praised them for being able to remain "decent" human beings in the face of the things they were doing in the East.
I first ran across that quote about 10 years ago IIRC. I think I read it a dozen times over, to see if I was misunderstanding it.
Himmler was very proud of his men: "to have done all this, and yet to have remained decent," I think is what he said. This isn't some pogrom by a bunch of drunken peasants, in other words, but a difficult and unpleasant (but necessary) task, and thank God we had men like you to carry it out. The public may never know of what you've done, but I do and I appreciate it.
It was one of the most revealing statements ever made by a top Nazi, and it confirms what Boris mentioned earlier. They weren't monsters, they were ordinary guys who sometimes needed pep talks to get through the day.
"When all else fails, a pigheaded refusal to look facts in the face will see us through." -- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
Originally posted by uh Clem
It was one of the most revealing statements ever made by a top Nazi, and it confirms what Boris mentioned earlier. They weren't monsters, they were ordinary guys who sometimes needed pep talks to get through the day.
To me it confirms that many of them were indeed getting human monsters (speaking about those who directly participated in war crimes etc.). They started as ordinary guys like you and me, but IMO they weren´t at the end.
Of course many of them were in a difficult situation, but at the beginning of mass killings in Poland, there often wasn´t strict military pressure to participate in executions etc. I remember a book (forgot the title) about a special police unit killing Jews in Poland, and all men were asked to volunteer for the job. Only a handful refused.
Some more refused after the first "action", because they couldn´t stand it any longer. The majority got used to it after a while, and so they continued. They sometimes drank a lot after it, later even jokes about their doings became common between the men of this unit.
I don´t think you´re still an ordinary guy after something like this. I´m not even sure that those who refused from the beginning to take part were ordinary guys.
There was even sympathy shown for the "poor soldiers" who were wearing out their trigger fingers by shooting so many Jews in one day. Loving a dog can be misleading to say the least...
I don´t think you´re still an ordinary guy after something like this. I´m not even sure that those who refused from the beginning to take part were ordinary guys.
Right. To clarify, I didn't mean that they were unaffected by what they were doing. (If they were, then Himmler's talk would have been pointless.) But they weren't sadists or psychotics (for the most part). They were average. And that's always been one of the most disturbing things about Naziism.
"When all else fails, a pigheaded refusal to look facts in the face will see us through." -- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
One of the reasons the Nazis moved to industralized murder after 1942 was that, besides a bit more efficient, the old fashioned type of mass killing was wearing down men psychologically. (The Nazi's never punished men who refused to kill-they just got sent to other tasks).
I find that quote amazing becuase what Himmler is basically telling his men that he is proud that they were able to overcome pityt, anguish, and whatever other sentiments they had that might make them question thier acts and they had overcome them, in order to carry out their historical task.
And sadly, he was right, and is right, about man: human beings are able to overcome all those sentiments we cheerish in order to carry out tasks. They are capable of dehumanizing, delegitimazing the lives of others , or abstracting them (just read documents about nuclar war and the endless euphiamisms) in order to kill them without remorse, without a second thought. Memories may come to haunt them, but that is a little late.
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
I've said it in another thread and I'll say it again here.
If you want to know what the Holocaust was like, read Primo Levi.
Sorry GePap, this notion of not punishing those who failed to kill is a gross blanket statement and the msg length limitation of threads leaves me no alternative but to suggest a "confirmed" source.
Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
"The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84
I have never heard of german soldiers suffereing some sort of serious penalty, not even being denied promotions, for failing to carry out genocidl orders. If you have a source, link to it, or gove the title.
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
I just watched the first part of the series. The series does seem to have a little more depth in how it portrays Hitler than any other Hitler biography movie I've ever seen, but it doesn't go far enough. We are shown how his father introduces him to Wagner, how he beats the boy Adolf for transgressions, and how young Hitler responds with acts of vandalism (burns his father's bee hive). They should have devoted more time to the early years, as all the other stuff has already been done.
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
Originally posted by orange
I think it is further indication that people can only be entertained to get information, otherwise they couldn't be bothered
But, in any event, i think it will be good to show what things led Hitler to what he did. Madmen aren't born, they are created by society.
Some madmen are created by society, and some are born. Hitler seems to be a creation of environment. He seemed an annoying person before WW1, and after 4 years in the Somme his more brutal and insane characteristics came to the fore. Even bad people sometimes have good characteristics. In many ways Hitler was brave, especially concerning his own personal safety. He started the "Night of the Long Knives" by personally arresting a bunch of Stormtroopers armed only with a pistol and his command ability. Considering the fact that they had access to machine guns it was a gutsy move. Of course if they had realized what was to become of many of them, they may have had a different reaction.
This same person had a panic attack on the eve of the Anchluss with Austria, and Hermann Goering of all people took charge and saw the operation through. This was one reason why Hitler stood by Goering during the war, even though Goering's failures were numerous.
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
Just saw the first part as well. It was pretty, pretty good .
I like the historical accuracy and research which was shown in little touches such as the German soldier has pointed helmets in 1914, but by 1918, they went to the much more modern rounded helments. And during the Beer Hall Pustch, Ludendorff was the only one who remained standing after the toops started firing. Good stuff
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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