What race/specie is Sauron?

[David Floyd]

I never heard of Gandalf being a Maia, and the Balrog certainly is not.

I'm about 100% certain on this...here's verification for the fact that Gandalf is a Maiar (based on the first page of a Yahoo search). When I have more time, I'll research more, and also look for Balrogs, but rest assured, they are Maiar.

http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/gandalf.html

[David Floyd]

Here's one for the Balrogs:

http://fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/maiar.html

Specifically:

"But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and labored....And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-Earth in later days. --The Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves""

This is written in the first paragraph, under the Maiar section.

[St Leo]

Yes, I have heard that Tolkiens books had lots of allegory in them dealing with the situation of the world during his time.

Try reading the introduction to Lord of the Rings. There's no allegory in LotR.

I never heard of Gandalf being a Maia, and the Balrog certainly is not.

You are mistaken. All five of the Istari are Maiar are so are the Balrogs. OTOH, the Dragons aren't Maia.

[Japher]

The Silmarillion never defines the Istari as Maia, so I won't believe a movie bio.

Balrog? They were demons of fire, spirits, but also never defined as maiar... Though it is never really defined where the line between the gods and their servants is.

[GePap]

Well, owning the Sillmarillion, I can say that that is not on the first paragraph of the maiar section. But you are correct, balrogsd are mentioned in the Maiar section (later on).

[David Floyd]

Well, they obviously aren't Valar, and they obviously aren't mortals, and they obviously aren't elves.

Where does that leave us?

[Lorizael]

Oh man, Tolkien stated so many occasion that he absolutely hated allegory. If you want Sauron to represent Hitler you can, but Tolkien did not mean it that way. He was just trying to give Britain a mythology of it own.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Does anyone think that Sauron represents Adolf Hitler? (The first book was written in 1937)

In the preface of his trilogy Tolkien strongly disclaims the idea that his work was an allegory for any real persons or events, with one exception - many of the features of evil in middle earth were drawn from a particular episode of his youth. As a young child their was a pristine woodland and pond where he liked to play. Family tragedy took him away from his early childhood home, then when he returned he discovered to his horror that his beloved sylvan playland had been ruined by an industrial mill built during his absence. One of the mills built in the Shire while Frodo was away bears the name of that hated mill, and in a more abstract way the features of the enemy in his book are those of industrial progress striving against a simpler agrarian way of life.

[GePap]

Tha quote comes from Chapter 3, "The coming of the elves and the captivity of Melkor". In that quote it is not very clear that balrogs are maiar and not some other beings, though their inclusion in the Maiar section does point that way.

[Japher]

I still think that it is rather vague on both the Istari and Balrog stance... Though, IMO they are servant of the Maiar, not them themselves, maybe partisans of them. Yet, I hold Maiar as meaning gods, if so then they (Balrogs and Istari) are angels.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by GePap
Sauron was not created by morgoth, he was created by the 'creator" and followed Morgoth I never heard of Gandalf being a Maia, and the Balrog certainly is not.

Part of Morgoth's fall came for his desire and inability to create sentient beings. The Valar and the Maiar were spirits created by the one god.
Gandalf and the other five wizards were Maiar sent to middle earth by the Valar to contest it (under some limitation enfored by some manner in which in the physical form were made) against Sauron. Gandalf's name as a Maia in Valinor was Orloin. In JRRTs ruminations upon him he first set him among the Maiar of Lorien, then later of the Mair of Manwe. The is a couple draft the recruiting of the Istari 'Unfinished tales'. Sauruman, Like Sauron was from the Maiar of Aule (the smith Valar). There are later framentary note about the Istari in the appropriate volumes of 'The History of Middle Earth' including one expounding upon the 2 blue wizards who were mostly passed over the the scene in 'Unfinished tales". That also containes a heart rending note from JRRT about his failing memory and his inabilty to find his earlier writings on the Istari or even to remeber the names he had given the blue wizards.
The Balrog (Sindarin for "demon fo might")(Quenya word is valaraurko) is a Maia, (although Morgoth did recruit some spirits from outside Ea, they must have been Aniur themselves, but ones who had not participated in the forming of Ea) among those who followed Morgoth is his first revolt. 7 of them originaly, 2-4 were killed in the attack on Gondolin, and the rest, save one, during the War of Wrath when the Valar did for Morgoth.

JRRT catagorically denied LoTR being an alegory for WW2 or any other real history.

[gsmoove23]

Wow, I gave the old college try at reading the Silmarillion but never had a chance. I'm amazed that there are people who got this far.

Someone posted a site that mentioned Gandalf was given a ring of fire, was this a ring of power connected to the one ring? Were the rings given to the dwarven kings ever accounted for?

As for wether Tolkien meant for there to be allegory or not I don't think the fact that he denied it neccessarily means it wasn't there. Many authors deny obvious allegories in their work but current events working into your work, subconsciously or not, sometimes cannot be helped. Tolkien can deny it all he likes but you can read the worries of the time right there on his pages.

[GeneralTacticus]

Were the rings given to the dwarven kings ever accounted for?

Yes. IIRC, four of them were consumed by dragons and the other three taken by Sauron (or the other way around; I can't remember which).

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Yes. IIRC, four of them were consumed by dragons and the other three taken by Sauron (or the other way around; I can't remember which).

Were the dwarves attached when they were consumed?

[GeneralTacticus]

Possibly, though they wouldn't have been much left afterwards. The ones taken by dragons were melted...