Is the economic disparity in the US that great?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
A thread that started out good with a interesting topic destroyed by people that has to tell everyone about their morals all the time. Surely this is not about morals, it's about economics. And the question is why there's a growing disparity not just in the US but in many other countries as well (although from different situations).

Can this be connected to the changes of the economy since the oil-crisis? Industrial jobs, and to a large extent low-skilled ones have declined. The service sector has a huge demand for "super-skilled" persons but at the same time also for low skilled workers at the bottom. Unlike in the industry, the productivity growth and profits per worker are small. This sets a limit to their wages. A harder situation for the people with little skills and a growing labour market for those who have the right skills might be one answer to the question why income (and wealth) disparities are growing after 1972.

Just two cents, feel free to comment.

I have to agree: the big growth in wages for the lower 20% in the US after the war surely comes from the boom in industry, but not only has industrial production become stagnant, but new factories don;t need as many people. So you do get a shift to the service sector, but the osrts of people who shift form manufacturing to service are not likely to ake much, in fact, since they are likely to be non-unionized, they get less.

But I think the change did not begin with the oil crisis: I think it begun more in the early 80's, during those economic hard times, when a lot of companies restructured. Also, the ending of many regulations, specially finantial ones (in 1971, before the oil boom) and in the early 80's and mid 90's allowe dfor huge growth in the value of investments, which I think was the biggest chunk of the growing disparety of wealth.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by Sava
you are misinformed as to what socialism is...

Actually, the last time we had this discussion on socialism, you were crushed badly and resorted to BAMing, and Chegitz came forward and supported my side of the argument.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by alva


It's beyond faillure, it's shamefull

And what exactly is shameful if the other 95% of the people have one of the highest standards of living in the world? Why do people always dwell on greed and envy instead of trying to do what it takes to make themselves rich?

[Japher]

Why do people always dwell on greed and envy instead of trying to do what it takes to make themselves rich?

Exactly.

[GePap]

95%? does that include the ones bellow the poverty line, the ones ho go hungry and so forth?

There are reasons why, when world orgs. do all these measurements and surveys of living standards, that the US does NOT come out on top. We have higher PCI than most other states, yet we also have higher rates of hunger and poverty than them either.

[David Floyd]

I don't understand how you guys can argue logical points using the Bible as a source... It's hardly a credible study on the points you are talking about: human behavior, the history of economics, the concept of wealth...

I'm using the Bible because when talking with monkspider, that is a good source to use. If you were in the debate, I would not debate from the Bible.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


Actually, the last time we had this discussion on socialism, you were crushed badly and resorted to BAMing, and Chegitz came forward and supported my side of the argument.

tuning in to imaginary 'Poly again? Why don't you ask Che if Socialism involves forcing people to part with their possessions.

Fabrications won't fool anyone.

[Sava]

Originally posted by David Floyd


I'm using the Bible because when talking with monkspider, that is a good source to use. If you were in the debate, I would not debate from the Bible.

That wasn't my point... I was just curious as to how you could use it to discuss human behavior as it is not a study on human behavior.

[Kropotkin]

Gepap: Well, I wouldn't know that much about specific reforms in the US. However, as I stated before, the same pattern has been seen in other countries as well so it might be hard to pinpoint it to that or this regulation. Instead I'd argue that it's possible that it's the result of a more general economic phenonomen that has to do with the labour market position of the unskilled. Not that regulations doesn't matter but there's more to it. A bad situation for the unskilled often increases disparities.

As an historical example, some paper I read the other week regarding the cross-atlantic migration from 1870 to the WW1 showed that there's a correlation between migration and unskilled wages compared to estimates of GDP per capita. Emigration lead to a relative better position for the unskilled over time and vice versa.

[Japher]

We have higher PCI than most other states, yet we also have higher rates of hunger and poverty than them either.

Why is that GePap? Why is their so much hunger in the US, even with all the soup kitchens, shelters, and the large amount of money we dole out for welfare? Why is there so much hunger in the US? Is it due to poverty or something else?

[David Floyd]

Sava, the point is that when debating with a person, your argument in that particular case can be made stronger if you use and quote a source which they view as important. This is true of anyone.

The Bible certainly isn't the best way to argue in favor of my views, yet it can be done, and because of the parties in the debate, that's why I'm doing so.

[Sava]

Sava, the point is that when debating with a person, your argument in that particular case can be made stronger if you use and quote a source which they view as important. This is true of anyone.

gotcha!

[GePap]

Originally posted by Japher


Why is that GePap? Why is their so much hunger in the US, even with all the soup kitchens, shelters, and the large amount of money we dole out for welfare? Why is there so much hunger in the US? Is it due to poverty or something else?

poverty. Notice how those Europeans, who dole oput far more for welfare, have lower rates of poverty and hunger, meaning that if yo mean to suggest that it is welfare that keeps people poor, well, you are wrong.

[Japher]

if yo mean to suggest that it is welfare that keeps people poor, well, you are wrong

That is not what I am getting at at all. I don't think it is welfare or any "feed the hungry" programs that cause hunger in the US. I think the problem lies on a sociological level, in that the ppl do not necessarily spend the money they receive on what that money was intended. This could be due to addictions, education (or lack there of), self image issues, and/or weakness to mass media...

I know a guy that went on unemployment after he lost his job, he even got a 6 mos severence package. The money that is alloted to unemployment is suppose to be used to keep ppl on their feet while they find a new job. It wasn't until his unemployment ran out that he actually began to even look for a job...

I have a freind who is on welfare. He lives on Ramen and carrot sticks. Yet, this guy has a nice brand new TV, drinks more beer than I can wave a stick out, which he gets, by the way, by selling his food stamps to his neighbor...

All I am saying that ppl out their starve because of choices that they made, and that when their brand new TV is not as shiny as it once was or it isn't showing the shows the want, they begin to complain...

I know that this not the case for all ppl, I mean my friends neighbor is getting extra food stamps for cheap! She is really responsible and treats her kids with respect, makes them go to school, and tries her best... I just don't think you can balme starvation on poverty, when the standard of living of even the lowliest of income earners is relativly high compared to the rest of the world.

[Sava]

you shouldn't try to generalize the problems of poverty... there isn't any one explanation that can apply to all people