Stupid patriotic Americans

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
HO, et al., well it is clear that there are cynics here in the United States who support a foreign policy based solely on economic and security interests and who see nothing in American ideals that are worthy of pride.

No, they simply see "ideals" as the PR pablum that can be put on whatever policy choices they make.

But, clearly, the Flag-waving Americans do not think this way.

You mean the ones with the "America, love it or leave it" stickers? Or the in the great photo I saw a few weeks back - some cracker with an American flag tee-shirt and a sign that said "France Germany Russia Mexico Chile you can all kiss my American ass."

This is not to say that economic interests and security interest are not also important foreign-policy considerations. We just do not believe they should be given primacy unless the threat is overwhelmingly clear -- such as we see in Osama bin Laden.

I see they still have access to good weed there in Santa Cruz. Economic and security interests have been the only foreign policy considerations of the US.

As the your status, HO, as an Austrian and your raising the issue of Nazi Germany, if it wasn't for America and her foolish, brain-dead ideals, you today would be living in the Third Reich.

The US intervened in Europe because Nazi Germany was a threat, and because we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. If it wasn't for the US, Europe would have "liberated" by the USSR, which would have collapsed under it's own bureucratic dead weight about the time it did anyway. The course of the cold war would have been a bit different, though.

It is almost offensive for someone in your country to snicker at American patriotism.

YEAH!! You tell 'im. Hear that Roland, we made you pukes free, and you have the freedom we gave you to say what you want, as long as it isn't critical of the great, glorious, freedom-loving beacon of light and humanity and granola, the USA!!!

[Spiffor]

Arrian

[MichaeltheGreat]

He's trolling again.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
He's trolling again.

You have to admit he's insanely successful

[Pekka]

Sometimes some American patriots rises to level, as if other countries don't like freedom, democrachssy etc. As if they are the only ones promoting it. As if the US is the only free country. As if we can't say a word, because we have different passport. As if US wars are about freeing others by default, without questioning. That is close to Jingoism, which I find dangerous.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Pekka
Sometimes some American patriots rises to level,

You can find morons and idiots sprouting nonsense in every country... why should America be any different

[Ned]

Arrian, if we do not put ideals ahead of security, we end up supporting dictators and we end up with empire (like the Roman empire). Focusing almost exclusively on security during the cold war help turn the world against us.

[Ned]

Pekka, OK, history is history.

But if we were solely focused on security, we probably would not have stuck our nose in either the Sino-Japanese war or Britain's war against Germany.

[Pekka]

Ming, you are very correct.. so me not mentioning it was bad. And saying American patriots, it's not 100% true. There are different kind of patriots, they all consider them true patriots and still are very different, yet most likely they all are patriots by its definition. I didn't mean it to come out like that, sorry.

Ned, I don't know about that. Maybe, maybe not..I just wanted to say, that I think that wasn't a solid argument.

[Arrian]

Arrian, if we do not put ideals ahead of security, we end up supporting dictators and we end up with empire (like the Roman empire). Focusing almost exclusively on security during the cold war help turn the world against us

If you're arguing for more principled foreign policy, good for you, just don't even try to insinuate that our past or current policies have been/are principled.

I think principled American foreign policy (beacon of democracy, freedom and lots of other wonderful things, etc) is probably a pipe dream, so I think I'd settle for a "realistic" foreign policy + dropping the silly rhetoric/flag waving.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Ned, we "stuck our nose" into Japan's actions in the Pacific pre-Pearl Harbor because we saw ourselves as the big dog in the Pacific, and Japan was trying to rival us. We weren't pleased to have a strategic rival, and I'm sure on some level there was concern about the aggressive militarism Japan was displaying. So we embargoed them.

Principled? No. Power politics.

-Arrian

[Az]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Which totally undercuts the cheerleading "we're sooo ****ing noble, you should be grateful" cheerleading BS."

People don't do this "Amurka, love it or leave it" USA USA USA crap on the basis of "we're self-interested SOB's, we're just more successful at it than you are." If people were honest that their patriotism was really schlong waving about economic power, nobody would care. It's the nobility and goodness crap that makes other people puke.

Btw, that's EXACTLY what other countries do as well.

[Arrian]

Everybody does it to some extent. But when you're the strongest, richest 'n loudest, the proverbial spotlight is on you. Your idiocy is prominently illuminated.

-Arrian

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Arrian
Ned, we "stuck our nose" into Japan's actions in the Pacific pre-Pearl Harbor because we saw ourselves as the big dog in the Pacific, and Japan was trying to rival us. We weren't pleased to have a strategic rival, and I'm sure on some level there was concern about the aggressive militarism Japan was displaying. So we embargoed them.

Principled? No. Power politics.

-Arrian

Japan's invasion of China alone was more than enough reason for an embargo. You dismiss it as "power politics". I call it "stop helping the rampaging warmonger." For the record, most nations were appalled by and openly condemned Japan. The US was just in a position to do something about.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Actually, bald eagles are bastards. One of their common hunting tactics is to let ospreys (also called "fish hawks" in the US) catch a fish, then the higher flying (and quite a bit larger) eagle dive bombs the osprey, scaring the crap out of it and making it drop the fish, which the eagle then takes. Now if there's any symbolic linkage to it being the national bird....

Work smarter, not harder.