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  • Originally posted by Ned
    HO, et al., well it is clear that there are cynics here in the United States who support a foreign policy based solely on economic and security interests and who see nothing in American ideals that are worthy of pride.
    No, they simply see "ideals" as the PR pablum that can be put on whatever policy choices they make.

    But, clearly, the Flag-waving Americans do not think this way.
    You mean the ones with the "America, love it or leave it" stickers? Or the in the great photo I saw a few weeks back - some cracker with an American flag tee-shirt and a sign that said "France Germany Russia Mexico Chile you can all kiss my American ass."

    This is not to say that economic interests and security interest are not also important foreign-policy considerations. We just do not believe they should be given primacy unless the threat is overwhelmingly clear -- such as we see in Osama bin Laden.
    I see they still have access to good weed there in Santa Cruz. Economic and security interests have been the only foreign policy considerations of the US.

    As the your status, HO, as an Austrian and your raising the issue of Nazi Germany, if it wasn't for America and her foolish, brain-dead ideals, you today would be living in the Third Reich.
    The US intervened in Europe because Nazi Germany was a threat, and because we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. If it wasn't for the US, Europe would have "liberated" by the USSR, which would have collapsed under it's own bureucratic dead weight about the time it did anyway. The course of the cold war would have been a bit different, though.

    It is almost offensive for someone in your country to snicker at American patriotism.
    YEAH!! You tell 'im. Hear that Roland, we made you pukes free, and you have the freedom we gave you to say what you want, as long as it isn't critical of the great, glorious, freedom-loving beacon of light and humanity and granola, the USA!!!
    When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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    • Arrian
      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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      • He's trolling again.
        When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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        • Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
          He's trolling again.
          You have to admit he's insanely successful
          "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
          "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
          "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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          • Sometimes some American patriots rises to level, as if other countries don't like freedom, democrachssy etc. As if they are the only ones promoting it. As if the US is the only free country. As if we can't say a word, because we have different passport. As if US wars are about freeing others by default, without questioning. That is close to Jingoism, which I find dangerous.
            In da butt.
            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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            • Originally posted by Pekka
              Sometimes some American patriots rises to level,
              You can find morons and idiots sprouting nonsense in every country... why should America be any different
              Keep on Civin'
              RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

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              • Arrian, if we do not put ideals ahead of security, we end up supporting dictators and we end up with empire (like the Roman empire). Focusing almost exclusively on security during the cold war help turn the world against us.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                • Pekka, OK, history is history.

                  But if we were solely focused on security, we probably would not have stuck our nose in either the Sino-Japanese war or Britain's war against Germany.
                  http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                  • Ming, you are very correct.. so me not mentioning it was bad. And saying American patriots, it's not 100% true. There are different kind of patriots, they all consider them true patriots and still are very different, yet most likely they all are patriots by its definition. I didn't mean it to come out like that, sorry.

                    Ned, I don't know about that. Maybe, maybe not..I just wanted to say, that I think that wasn't a solid argument.
                    In da butt.
                    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                    Comment


                    • Arrian, if we do not put ideals ahead of security, we end up supporting dictators and we end up with empire (like the Roman empire). Focusing almost exclusively on security during the cold war help turn the world against us
                      If you're arguing for more principled foreign policy, good for you, just don't even try to insinuate that our past or current policies have been/are principled.

                      I think principled American foreign policy (beacon of democracy, freedom and lots of other wonderful things, etc) is probably a pipe dream, so I think I'd settle for a "realistic" foreign policy + dropping the silly rhetoric/flag waving.

                      -Arrian
                      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                      • Ned, we "stuck our nose" into Japan's actions in the Pacific pre-Pearl Harbor because we saw ourselves as the big dog in the Pacific, and Japan was trying to rival us. We weren't pleased to have a strategic rival, and I'm sure on some level there was concern about the aggressive militarism Japan was displaying. So we embargoed them.

                        Principled? No. Power politics.

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                        • Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


                          Which totally undercuts the cheerleading "we're sooo ****ing noble, you should be grateful" cheerleading BS."

                          People don't do this "Amurka, love it or leave it" USA USA USA crap on the basis of "we're self-interested SOB's, we're just more successful at it than you are." If people were honest that their patriotism was really schlong waving about economic power, nobody would care. It's the nobility and goodness crap that makes other people puke.
                          Btw, that's EXACTLY what other countries do as well.
                          urgh.NSFW

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                          • Everybody does it to some extent. But when you're the strongest, richest 'n loudest, the proverbial spotlight is on you. Your idiocy is prominently illuminated.

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Arrian
                              Ned, we "stuck our nose" into Japan's actions in the Pacific pre-Pearl Harbor because we saw ourselves as the big dog in the Pacific, and Japan was trying to rival us. We weren't pleased to have a strategic rival, and I'm sure on some level there was concern about the aggressive militarism Japan was displaying. So we embargoed them.

                              Principled? No. Power politics.

                              -Arrian
                              Japan's invasion of China alone was more than enough reason for an embargo. You dismiss it as "power politics". I call it "stop helping the rampaging warmonger." For the record, most nations were appalled by and openly condemned Japan. The US was just in a position to do something about.

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                              • Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
                                Actually, bald eagles are bastards. One of their common hunting tactics is to let ospreys (also called "fish hawks" in the US) catch a fish, then the higher flying (and quite a bit larger) eagle dive bombs the osprey, scaring the crap out of it and making it drop the fish, which the eagle then takes. Now if there's any symbolic linkage to it being the national bird....
                                Work smarter, not harder.
                                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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