Female teachers aide suspended for wearing religious cross in school

[Sava]

Israel isn't a religious state? Is this what you are saying?

[Boris Godunov]

From the article:

"If people are concerned about the law, the place to address it is at the state legislature," Mr. Coad said.

Sounds about right. If what Sava said is true, then I have no qualms about the punishment she received.

She was not prohibited from wearing the cross, just in having it in open view. This is akin to teachers not being allowed to display religious symbols in their classroom. I have no qualm with the rule, as it in no way affects her ability to believe in her faith, nor violates any stipulation of Christian religious doctrine (doesn't the Bible forbid graven images, actually?).

If she wants to show off her faith at her job, I suggest she seek employment at a church or religious school. She now has a year off to do so!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
From the article:

"If people are concerned about the law, the place to address it is at the state legislature," Mr. Coad said.

Sounds about right. If what Sava said is true, then I have no qualms about the punishment she received.

She was not prohibited from wearing the cross, just in having it in open view. This is akin to teachers not being allowed to display religious symbols in their classroom. I have qualm with the rule, as it in no way affects her ability to believe in her faith, nor violates any stipulation of Christian religious doctrine (doesn't the Bible forbid graven images, actually?).

If she wants to show off her faith at her job, I suggest she seek employment at a church or religious school. She now has a year off to do so!

She could also try to be a good Christian. I seem to recall some passages about preaching by being a good example.

[Zkribbler]

As a card-carrying member of the ACLU, I would like to see the aide sue the school district.

Article I of the Bill of Rights begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." These two clauses set up a tension between each other.

I see an aide--or any other government official--who wears a small religious symbol as a person who is exercising her freedom of religion. It is only when that aide/govt official attempts to induce others into wearing that religious symbol that the line is crossed.

The same goes for school prayer. Anyone who wishes to pray is school is free to do so. What may not happen is that officials cannot use their governmental powers to attempt to induce others to pray.

[Sirotnikov]

Actually, Dissident is giving you part of the story. I heard about this a few weeks ago. This woman was prostelesizing Christianity in her class. A few non-Christian students complained. The woman was forced to stop,

Now this is good.

She isn't allowed to preach in class.

but then started wearing her cross on the outside of her clothes, drawing attention to it regularly.

Ooooh!!! The horrror!!!

Soon we'll fire jewish teachers who put on yamachas and grow beards, because they want to draw attention

The preaching part was very wrong. But I don't care if she wears a cross, a huge cross, on her head, made of pure gold, and covered with roses. It's her state given right .

The only thing I could possibly imagine that is covered by free speech but would be wrong IMO, is if she wore a t-shirt saying : "I'm a christian, but you're going to HELL!! REPENT NOW!!"

I am not against wearing religious things in school as long as you don't PUSH YOUR RELIGION ON OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS. This woman needs to be out of the public system.

for preaching -yes.

for wearing a cross - no.

[Sava]

You seem to have misinterpretted my point as you echoed it under the guise of disagreement...

for preaching -yes.

for wearing a cross - no.

I had many Jewish teachers over the years, none wore yamachas or prostelesized in class. Again, I'm sure things are different in Israel (a religious state). While Israel may have democracy, freedom of religion, and be tolerant; it still is a religious state. America is not a religious state. There are some that want to make it one, and that should be stopped. Every job has rules and guidelines that must be adhered to. If your beliefs make you unable to follow said rules, well, find another job. This woman is perfectly capable of teaching at a private school if she wishes to push what she believes is "God's message".

EDIT: I almost forgot. If it's okay to display religious icons, is it okay for someone who believes in Nazism to where a Swastika in plain view? If the Nazi can't, then the standard should be the same for everyone regardless of their beliefs.

[MichaeltheGreat]

IF she stopped proselytizing (inappropriate as a paid employee of governement in a public school) as ordered, then wearing the cross visibly in and of itselft should not be grounds for disciplinary action.

Sava - non-Orthodox Jews don't wear yarmulke (At least the standard US sects), so the fact that Jewish teachers didn't wear one is pretty inconclusive.

Swastika or Nazi paraphernalia are not Establishment Clause issues, they're political speech, which is in a slightly different category of protection.

In Parker v. Levy (1986) SCOTUS held that military uniform regulations overrode free exercise rights due to the unique nature of the military setting and requirements for discipline. That is, AFAIK, the only SCOTUS restriction on passive free exercise under the Establishment Clause.

There is a more extensive legal framework and plenty of precedent, for regulating various forms of passive political speech in a school setting, where the manner of the political speech, or the message, was reasonably considered to be disruptive to the educational purpose of the school.

[Edan]

America is not a religious state.

So how come people say it's so religious compared to Europe.

EDIT: I almost forgot. If it's okay to display religious icons, is it okay for someone who believes in Nazism to where a Swastika in plain view? If the Nazi can't, then the standard should be the same for everyone regardless of their beliefs.

Several thoughts:
Nazism isn't a religion.
Even if it were, you'd probably be far more likely to see classroom disturbances and complaints due to a swastika being in plain view than a cross, which, for me, means that the bar is lower.

While I think people should be allowed to wear non-"flashy" religious objects (ie, for religious reasons than to wear it simply for the sake that others will see it and scare or otherwise try to get someone to convert...), if it's preventing the classroom from being an effective teaching enviornment, it's probably going too far.

[Sava]

And to reiterate my point...
I don't care about wearing religious symbols. The Nazi thing was a bad example.
I care about prostelyzation. She was using her cross not as a passive part of her outfit, but as a symbol to refer to while preaching.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sava
And to reiterate my point...
I don't care about wearing religious symbols. The Nazi thing was a bad example.
I care about prostelyzation. She was using her cross not as a passive part of her outfit, but as a symbol to refer to while preaching.

From what I understand, they're two separate issues. She stopped active proselytization, she continued visibly wearing the cross. As long as she actually stopped the former, she shouldn't be suspended for doing the latter, if that's all she did after the initial warning.

[Urban Ranger]

It's a grey area. Under the separation of church and state, a country cannot favour a religion over another. Allowing the passive display of religious symbols by workers of said state can be construed as favouring that religion.

[St Leo]

Allowing the passive display of religious symbols by workers of said state can be construed as favouring that religion.

Only if they are passively displaying it over an officially-sanctioned uniform. If no uniform is involved, she can hang a lead penis from her neck if she wants to and teach like that. However, the moment she starts preaching, she should be fired.

[Odin]

anyone who preaches in school should be fired and blacklisted.

[Dr Strangelove]

The fact that she began wearing the cross after being reprimanded for preaching might be construed as a sort of thumbing the nose at the authorities who disciplined her. Schools are often very sensitive about that for some reason.

[Imran Siddiqui]

anyone who preaches in school should be fired and blacklisted.

That's the last thing I thought I'd hear from a Communist .

--

I agree with MtG, there is nothing wrong with wearing the cross in public, but there is a problem is pushing your religious beliefs.