2003 Automobile quality report is in...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Arrian
Key words: "Initial quality"

This is all about how many defects (many of them insignificant) the car has when you buy it.

I care a helluva lot more about how the car will hold up over years of use.

-Arrian

Yup, that's exactly it.

American cars have usually done very well with initial quality, it's the long-term quality that they take a steep nosedive (as evidenced by their resale values).

[Arrian]

Yep. American cars fall apart (generally, I'm sure there are one or two decent ones out there).

Lexus does indeed rock. When I was in highschool, I had a job at a Lexus dealership and (before they realized it was a major insurance no-no) got to drive the cars some. They're great... though not THAT great, when you throw price into the mix.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

I read an article in one of the major car magazines a few years back about this "the price falls so there for the quality must be the reason" agruement. Mostly that's just false. So why does the after market price for a late model domestic fall so much faster then for say a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan?

The anwser is volume. The big three make and sell millions upon millions of more cars in North America then the Japanese so when Joe Blow goes out to find a late model used car he has literally 3-10 times as many 1998 Ford Thauruses to choice from compared to Nissan Altimas. Supply always lowers the market price. Not that the big three haven't made things even worse for themselves by offering sweet lease deals (which means lots and lots of low milage well mantained cars will be for sale 2 years down the road) and zero percent financing. Since most buyers are fairly brand loyal guess who's cars & trucks are getting traded in to get those shiney new Chevy suburbans at 0%?

That all adds up to a lower resale price for domestic cars compared to lower volume imports.

[Dauphin]

Are all those defects of equal value?

I'd rather have a car with a couple of defects that are cosmetic, say the cupholder is broke and there is rather nasty scratching in the paintwork, than to have catastrophic brake failure.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I read an article in one of the major car magazines a few years back about this "the price falls so there for the quality must be the reason" agruement. Mostly that's just false. So why does the after market price for a late model domestic fall so much faster then for say a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan?

The anwser is volume. The big three make and sell millions upon millions of more cars in North America then the Japanese so when Joe Blow goes out to find a late model used car he has literally 3-10 times as many 1998 Ford Thauruses to choice from compared to Nissan Altimas. Supply always lowers the market price. Not that the big three haven't made things even worse for themselves by offering sweet lease deals (which means lots and lots of low milage well mantained cars will be for sale 2 years down the road) and zero percent financing. Since most buyers are fairly brand loyal guess who's cars & trucks are getting traded in to get those shiney new Chevy suburbans at 0%?

That all adds up to a lower resale price for domestic cars compared to lower volume imports.

That makes little sense to me. It seems about as logical as saying that black cars should be more expensive than red ones simply because there are fewer of them.

[Sava]

Good question BC

Hummers suck. They actually have an 4sshole test. You have to be an 4sshole to buy one.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
That makes little sense to me. It seems about as logical as saying that black cars should be more expensive than red ones simply because there are fewer of them.

BC: At it's core it is very simple. Greater suppy equals lower prices if all things are equal. Now add on the fact that there are lots and lots of 2 year old cars coming in off lease which have to be flogged to some one (also remember all the major rental car companies are owned by the Big 3 so they buy only big three and then sell the cars every 2 years). Lastly, realize that the big three are offering super low financing (often 0%) and thousands of dollars in cash back buyers bonuses neither of which the Japanese use quite as much and you see most people find it cheap enough to just keep trading up to a newer model every few years then to bother keeping a three year old car.

That means the market litterally gets flooded with lots and lots of high quality low milage late model cars. Thus the price falls. The Japs are selling fewer cars and they aren't selling as many on lease nor are they offering major incentives so they're cars don't end up flooding the market.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Oerdin


BC: At it's core it is very simple. Greater suppy equals lower prices if all things are equal.

With you.

Now add on the fact that there are lots and lots of 2 year old cars coming in off lease which have to be flogged to some one

OK, that will depresses the value of all cars though. If my choice is between a cheap Ford and an expensive Toyata, all other things being equal I will choose the Ford, and so will everyone else with any sense.

(also remember all the major rental car companies are owned by the Big 3 so they buy only big three and then sell the cars every 2 years).

That makes more "Big 3" cars than other types, in and of itself that means nothing. As I say above.

Lastly, realize that the big three are offering super low financing (often 0%) and thousands of dollars in cash back buyers bonuses neither of which the Japanese use quite as much and you see most people find it cheap enough to just keep trading up to a newer model every few years then to bother keeping a three year old car.

OK that explains why cars would be even cheaper, but it doesn't explain why people are going to pay a few thousand more dollars on a foreign car simply because there are fewer of them. If the cars are of the same standard, why go foreign at all given the extra expense?

That means the market litterally gets flooded with lots and lots of high quality low milage late model cars. Thus the price falls. The Japs are selling fewer cars and they aren't selling as many on lease nor are they offering major incentives so they're cars don't end up flooding the market.

Again I come back to my fundamental question (sorry for sounding like a broken record). If the market is flooded with cheap American cars why buy an expensive Japanese car unless it is of better quality?

[SlowwHand]

Red cars should cost less.
They're the most ticketed, and most stolen color.

[Dinner]

I'd say may people still prosieve the Japanese makes to have better quality because in the 70-early 90s they did have better quality. Preception always lags reality.

Also there are many people who want to be apart from the masses and they don't want to have the same car as their neighbor and they're willing to pay a little extra to get a less common car.

[Dinner]

Of course we've just been talking about price and quality and we haven't even touched on some people find certain designs more attractive then others.

My main point is that the Quality of many American brands is excellent; far better then many (possibly most) European or Japanese brands.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Oerdin
My main point is that the Quality of many American brands is excellent; far better then many (possibly most) European or Japanese brands.

Thats a big conclusion to draw from such a limited scope and ill-explained study.

[Dinner]

The whole point of satistical quality control is so you can draw such conclusions. You can mathmatically and empericially prove that quality is improving or getting worse as well as measure relative quality compared to various competetors.

[Dauphin]

1) It doesn't say what type the defects are. As I said above are these taken on a points system, worse defects counting as being worth more, or is catastrophic brake failure considered an equal defect as a broken cup holder?

2) The report does not look at defects that occur after 3 months. There is no study of the long term durability of their purported quality.

3) If a car has no defects it does not mean it is of higher quality, unless you restrict it to mean it is better built to spec (and thus ignore things like performance).



I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, just that the conclusion is premature given the evidence you have shown.