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**GePap** · April 30, 2003, 11:40

Look at a Map of Europe: Italy, spain and Britian are all add-ons. You can have "Europe" without any of them, you can't have "Europe" without Germany and France. As for Fez's "Germany is outdated": Germany's GDP is what, 3 times that of Spain? And France's GDP is bigger than the UK's. As for the East, they are way behind economically, and will stay there for a while, plus a lot of their capital comes from, where else, "Old Europe"...

But beyond this: the big problem with the EU military in general is that they don;t spend enough and spend on the "wrong things". The UK and France both spend about 3% of GNP on defense (I think France now spends more than the UK) and both have the ability to send forces world-wide, though the French are less able to move Heavy forces. The big porbems are Spain, Italy and Germany. The Germans have a large, heavy army but spend only 1.5% GNP on defense, and are not updating their weapons systems: they have antiquted support vehicles (most of their trucks are so old they suck up money on maintanence) and they are not buying precision bombs and other modern equipment.Spain's military is a joke: at least the Germans could in theory defend themselves form thier neighbors, not so Spain. And the Italians, while better than Spain, are much like the Germans.

In theory, if the whole EU spent 3% of their GNP on defense, they would almost rival the Us in defense spending, though as long as national armmies are the norm, redundancies will live on.

**Giancarlo** · April 30, 2003, 11:45

Numbers aren't much of the issue here. It matters what these numbers are made up of. It is a fact that Spain is one of the fastest growing in Europe. Germany has experienced nil growth. Spain's military is not a joke. We buy from the Germans I will say. Our Leopard 2A4 stockpile... we have a good airforce of F-18s and Mirage F-1s. So you are a joke.

**GePap** · April 30, 2003, 11:49

Oh, Fez, you are so adorable when you are you...well, not really.

Spain's military is still one of the weakest in Europe give the size of Spain as compared to other members. It is ncie to see they are trying to rectify the situation but if you claim that Spain's military is the equal of even the Italians, well, I will have nothign but laughter for you.

As for the economy: what's unemployment down to? 15%? I never said the German's aren;t in a funk. BUt they are still way ahead of you. when sapnish companies have the power of German companies, well, then you can say something.

**TCO** · April 30, 2003, 11:50

Originally posted by Spiffor

About the people working in ranches in Argentina, who actually ride horses to guide the cattle. I've forgotten the Argentinian name though.

I think it is gauchero.

BTW, "cowboy" is not just a term from the movies or a pejorative (Euro version) or praise (Ami version). It actually means a working cowhand. Spend some time in the West. You'll see.

**TCO** · April 30, 2003, 11:52

Maybe it is vacaro?

**Giancarlo** · April 30, 2003, 11:54

Thanks Gepap for looking at my points.

Spain's military is still one of the weakest in Europe give the size of Spain as compared to other members.

True. I am not denying. We don't have too much indigenous equipiment. Some of our naval and infantry vehicles are built in Spain but we mostly order overseas. We have changed our military from a conscript force to a professional force showing excellent amounts of capability in missions in the Baltic and other parts of the world.

http://www.ejercito.mde.es (That is the address, perhaps without the www...)

It is ncie to see they are trying to rectify the situation but if you claim that Spain's military is the equal of even the Italians, well, I will have nothign but laughter for you.

It is not. Italy has managed to develop the Ariete C1 which is my favorite tank. Spain is a little far from that. We are going to be at that stage in some time.

As for the economy: what's unemployment down to? 15%?

In Spain about 10-11% depending on seasonally adjusted averages.

I never said the German's aren;t in a funk. BUt they are still way ahead of you.

Maybe.

when sapnish companies have the power of German companies, well, then you can say something.

German companies have more problems than we do despite being larger.

**GePap** · April 30, 2003, 11:56

Germany has various structural problems, but the underlying economic foundations are sound. Surely the germans need reform at home, but they are big players abroad as well. Volkswagen is number 3 car maker, Daimler does good business (and got suckered by those chrystler folks), siemens, Bayer, bertlesmann are all significant players in thier international fields.

**Giancarlo** · April 30, 2003, 11:59

Yeah Gepap, I never denied that. Daimler is good... and so is Siemens...

But our companies are approaching these German ones more quickly then you may belief. Repsol is one of these companies.

Germany right now has a problem with the labor unions and giving too much power to them. That will cause the economy to falter.

**Dauphin** · April 30, 2003, 12:01

Originally posted by GePap
And France's GDP is bigger than the UK's.

That is much of a muchness. The economies are about the same size.

**gunkulator** · April 30, 2003, 12:04

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Will the next incarnation of the UN cut it?

Depends on how it is organized. Similar to the EU, the "new UN" should require some minimum level of human rights in order to be allowed to join. The basic problem today is that unelected dictators are allowed a democratic vote in what the UN says and does. This is unnacceptable.

International action won't 'cut it' until we are willing to put the resources into it and put alot of trust into the process. That means going along even when we may disagree with its decisions.

Obviously. That is why I advocate much closer political ties amongst first world nations. A populace that already supports a representative gov't is more likely to accept the decisions of a larger representative body. The current situation today where nations like Libya are allowed to influence UN policies make the UN a mockery of democratic ideals.

**Spiffor** · April 30, 2003, 12:05

Germany's main problem is that its economy was highly oriented towards high-end products with nearly no competition on these markets. The competition is now here very much, which lowers German sales.

There is also a problem of adaptation to the current standard of capitalism, as German companies still rely very heavily on banking to find their capital rather than stock markets.

But Fez has one point on this : Germany has real trouble to enter the information economy, in the meaning that German software and web-related industry is really weak, and no ambitious program to rehabilitate the economy exists yet.

This is a problem common to Europe, which seems not to emphasize enough on high-tech, but rather on "old" (read : what was modern in the 70'-80's) activities : consumer industry, entertainment, financials...

**Spiffor** · April 30, 2003, 12:08

Originally posted by Big Crunch
That is much of a muchness. The economies are about the same size.

Ewuivalent GDP
Equivalent military spending
Only nuclear powers of Europe

How come we look so much like Britain !? We should tank our GDP and scrap our nuclear and military potential immediately

No way we remain like the Rosbifs

**TCO** · April 30, 2003, 12:10

I want to sucker some more capital out of Germany. Come on. Take something over. You need to show us how much stronger you are than us. Here, have some stock...

**TCO** · April 30, 2003, 12:12

Argentine cowboy term?

**Dauphin** · April 30, 2003, 12:13

Originally posted by GP
I want to sucker some more capital out of Germany. Come on. Take something over.

They are rather pre-occupied with Poland at the moment.

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