Old Europe meets

[Bereta_Eder]

Not really. Just look at the euro or ineed the foundation of the EU. Only a handful of nations started it, the others joined in later.

[Ned]

Paiktis, there is a difference between an economic union and anti-US military alliance.

[Bereta_Eder]

Yes the second is a bit more difficult. But even when the euro was first announced some decades back, Americans just laughed. Now it is stronger than the dollar.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Greece has said that if that plan comes to reality it will join ASAP

(since noone's older than Greece you see)

There were plenty of countries in existance before Greece. Greece broke away from Turkey in the 1800's, right?

[Bereta_Eder]

Modern Greece that is

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Ned
Paiktis, there is a difference between an economic union and anti-US military alliance.

An alliance without participation of the United States is not necessarily anti-US.

[Bereta_Eder]

It depends on the US really. If it behaves...

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Modern Greece that is

Well, "Modern United States" beats out "Modern Greece but first a bunch of kings" by fifty years.

[Bereta_Eder]

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW Greece kicked out the turkish yoke in 1820's not 1880's and it's been uphill ever since.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by paiktis22

Dind't you guys have Kings for the first Hundred years? How quaint!


Slightly back on track, I'd love to see the EU try to unify their militaries. Won't happen, and the European countries are so far behind the United States in Technology that I doubt they'll be much of an threat.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Well, "Modern United States" beats out "Modern Greece but first a bunch of kings" by a hundred years.

Yes, it is "Old America"

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by BeBro


Yes, it is "Old America"

Well, the Southwest is...

[Bereta_Eder]

About the Kings, yes unfortunately. now they're gone too.

but do you have democracy now? even without kings? (or health care for that matter and peaceful life)

The Euro was deemed impossible but yet happened and it is stronger than the dollar now.

[Spiffor]

to the initiative. It goes completely against the historical trend.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a European bloc independent from the US (a relationship that would preferably involve cooperation, but I have no particular problems with rivalry).

But this initiative completely goes in the way, because it gives individual nation-states too much power in this. As the divisions on the Iraq war shows, a common voice on the foreign policy cannot be found in the EU as long as nation-states didn't give up this part of their sovereignity.

The big split in Europe was not directly about war. War was a convenient item on which the oppositions focused, but it wasn't the problem in itself. The real opposition was between countries that wanted to continue to guide the EU, and countries that wanted to take an active part in EU's guidance.

It was also very much about the positions on EU as a diplomatic and military power :
- France and Germany strive for the creation of an EU bloc.
- UK wants to keep its independance, and play on both sides (UK is at the edge of EU's current military cooperation along with France)
- Spain doesn't want to have to spend too much on military, especially since much of its EU money will disappear to profit the new member-states.

The only solution to adress this split would be to instill democracy in the EU, and let the supranational democratic institutions speak, to represent the will of the people, with minimal input from the haggling nation states. Unfortunately, we won't see it anytime soon, thanks notably to Chirac's outdated conceptions of Europe.