The Court: Who should control North/South Sheepsta

[Jack_www]

The first response I would like to make it towards the claims that my client had the chance to avoid his nation to falling into anarchy. I would think that all would agree that Sheep main concern after his hospitalization was to recover. Sheep after all had to have a tumor removed and had biger things to worry about then his nation at Nationstates. He was not aware of the fact that his nation would be deleted during the time of his recovery, that he still had time to log in at a time when he would have more time to check on his nation.

Also many on Apolyton on those who are in NES and are involved with Nationstates knew that Sheep was sick at this time, and no one ever bothered to pm Sheep and tell him what was going on, or weather he had given up his nation on nationstates. Even the consul of Alecrast, GeneralTacticus knew this. Here is a quote proving the point:

He's been in hospital (with a tumour, IIRC), and I imagine he didn't have time to log in and keep it running.

To the second point of the vote of the Sheepsta people to accept Alecrast rule. THe fact is there is no real way to gage this, since this is rpg mostly with no moderation, accept for this court. The only true way to get any short of back would get backing of etheir Sheep himself or the other nations of Apolyton, or through the Apolyton Court. None of this was ever done. So this point of the election done by Alecrast is totaly bogus and has no merit or weight in considering who rules Sheepsta. Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.

Also many nations early on voiced opposition to this move made by Alecrast, all of which were the Allies of Sheepsta at the time. Here is such voice of opostion made by the Kindom of Wine:

The Kingdom of Wine agrees with the positions of the United States of Jackson and of Iguana Fire, the Free nation of Sheepsta was an ally to the Kingdom, after that we helped the democratic factions take the power against the Catholic Fundamentalists.

We ask for a second election to be held, and internationally monitorized as we believe that the previous one was done too fast, and as we don't believe in those new methods as they are unsafe to a possible attack from hackers.

We also would like to know why did Alecrast invited a nation from outside Apolyton to mess around in our regional affaires, we believe Alecrast should have, before intervening, consulted the Regional court, and should have asked for permission in order to call an external ally to intervene in that matter

(In other words: we want no stinking non-Apolytoners in Apolyton )

Saluti
King Giovanni Bennati da Moncalieri
Prime Minister: GrandDuke Francesco Morelli da Pinerolo

And to this day many nations of Apolyton are opposed to the occupation of Sheepsta by Alecrast and their allies.

[GeneralTacticus]

That is not true, it will not be pointless. As a mediation court, no party is bound by the decision. However, what it does do, is give legitimacy to the party this court deems to be in the right. This means there will be no sanctions for taking military action to enforce this ruling, and trade sanctions will be legal, if any nation wishes to impose them to enforce this ruling. Indeed, The Commonwealth of Akiria, whom I represent, urges all parties, whether they agree to be bound or not, to honour the decision of this court. If New Sheepsta were to lose, and try to attack The Disputed Terratories, Akiria will defend them. Likewise, if Alecrast were to lose, but refuses to give up, aid, both tangible and monitary, will be sent to help New Sheepsta enforce this ruling.

While we accept that you disagree and do not wish to impede the operating of the court, and hence will drop this point from here on, we do still believe that if Sheep is willing to acept only a ruling which supports his own position, then the whole process of 'mediation' becomes a farce.

The first response I would like to make it towards the claims that my client had the chance to avoid his nation to falling into anarchy. I would think that all would agree that Sheep main concern after his hospitalization was to recover. Sheep after all had to have a tumor removed and had biger things to worry about then his nation at Nationstates. He was not aware of the fact that his nation would be deleted during the time of his recovery, that he still had time to log in at a time when he would have more time to check on his nation.

Also many on Apolyton on those who are in NES and are involved with Nationstates knew that Sheep was sick at this time, and no one ever bothered to pm Sheep and tell him what was going on, or weather he had given up his nation on nationstates.

All this is irrelevant. You have still failed to provide any reasonable reason to why Sheep made no attempt to maintain his nation. You offer only the fact that he had been too lazy to read the Nationstates FAQ. We re-iterate, the fact that Sheep was able to post in the NES forum demonstrated that he was easily able to either login to his nation, or make arrangements for it to be taken care of. The fact that he didn't do either of these made it a more than reasonable assumption that he had utterly abandoned his nation to anarchy. Again, we repeat, Sheep being lazy and forgetting to do something doesn't give him the right to reclaim it. That is like "forgetting" a child by the roadside then expecting Social Services to give it back to you once you start to miss it.

Even the consul of Alecrast, GeneralTacticus knew this. Here is a quote proving the point:

Not only is this irrelevant, we note that you conveniently omitted the sentence which came before it: "No, he must have just abandoned it." I made this statement in response to a statement by Jack_www that Sheep had deleted his nation, which was incorrect simply because you cannot do so. Moreover, when I made this statement, I was unaware of the state of Sheep's internet access. As it turns out, Sheep had ample time to log in, even if only once to set his nation to vacation mode, which would have meant Sheepsta would not be deleted for another 60 days. Hardly a particularly taxing task, especially given that he seems to have had quite enough time to take part in NESing.

To the second point of the vote of the Sheepsta people to accept Alecrast rule. THe fact is there is no real way to gage this, since this is rpg mostly with no moderation, accept for this court. The only true way to get any short of back would get backing of etheir Sheep himself or the other nations of Apolyton, or through the Apolyton Court. None of this was ever done. So this point of the election done by Alecrast is totaly bogus and has no merit or weight in considering who rules Sheepsta. Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.

You offer up your own rebuttal here. This is an RPG. Alecrast made the claim that the elections happened. This was then validated by other nations (Both traditional Alecrast allies, and allies of the USS before its fall). Therefore, it happened. We again re-iterate that Alecrast and Bulbagarden both have made the statement that they are willing to re-do the referendums under the supervision of other major nations in the region.
As for the claim made by Jackson, "Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.", again, this is addressed by the RPG. Alecrast and Bulbagarden have already made their intentions clear, and those intentions were certainly not for any sort of permanent occupation. The nations of North and South Sheepsta are Protectorates, which have been given the right to choose their own path if they wish to.

Also many nations early on voiced opposition to this move made by Alecrast, all of which were the Allies of Sheepsta at the time. Here is such voice of opostion made by the Kindom of Wine:

Voices of opposition which quickly melted away. Indeed, Wine, which is *NOT* a traditional Alecrast ally, has since taken a rather different position, and the issues he raised are of course being addressed to the best of Bulbagarden's abilities (Abilities which are stretched to the limit when they are forced to fund a war as well as welfare one must add).

And to this day many nations of Apolyton are opposed to the occupation of Sheepsta by Alecrast and their allies.

We count 3. Only 2 of which are recognised as legitimate. One of which is you Jackson. And even you have called the actions of Sheepsta "insane". This does not constitute a many. Nor does this make any difference. That nations might not like Alecrast having made North Sheepsta its protectorate (Again, we must point out that these are not occupied territories as New Sheepsta's propaganda ministry is quick to claim) does not make it any less legitimate.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
That is like "forgetting" a child by the roadside then expecting Social Services to give it back to you once you start to miss it.

Actually, under British law, that would be the case. As Mother, she would have rights to the child, unless they could prove she was unfit. Whether forgetfullness is enough to claim that, would be disputed.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
You offer up your own rebuttal here. This is an RPG. Alecrast made the claim that the elections happened. This was then validated by other nations (Both traditional Alecrast allies, and allies of the USS before its fall).

I hope you intend to offer evidence/quotes etc. for this.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Therefore, it happened. We again re-iterate that Alecrast and Bulbagarden both have made the statement that they are willing to re-do the referendums under the supervision of other major nations in the region.

How would this work? Could you give us details?

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Alecrast and Bulbagarden have already made their intentions clear, and those intentions were certainly not for any sort of permanent occupation. The nations of North and South Sheepsta are Protectorates, which have been given the right to choose their own path if they wish to.

Not perminant? Do you intend to give them back? Or to the international community?

Edit: I am sorry if this seems like I am being harshly questioning. That is not the case, I simply saw a couple of points which I would like clarification on. I am not arguing for or against anyone, that is for the opposition council, but I would like to bring things up at times, for a few more details.

Thank you Centralis. Does Jack_www have anything more to add? If so, please do so, and Centralis may respond, and bring his own issues.

[Jack_www]

Yes I would, their are many things that GeneralTacticus has stated that I would like to respond to and also I would like to present my closing arguments once each side has rested their case.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

All this is irrelevant. You have still failed to provide any reasonable reason to why Sheep made no attempt to maintain his nation. You offer only the fact that he had been too lazy to read the Nationstates FAQ. We re-iterate, the fact that Sheep was able to post in the NES forum demonstrated that he was easily able to either login to his nation, or make arrangements for it to be taken care of. The fact that he didn't do either of these made it a more than reasonable assumption that he had utterly abandoned his nation to anarchy. Again, we repeat, Sheep being lazy and forgetting to do something doesn't give him the right to reclaim it. That is like "forgetting" a child by the roadside then expecting Social Services to give it back to you once you start to miss it.

Your Client has claimed to have given Sheep one weeks waring before moving in on Sheepsta, we would like to see the proof that this warning was in fact given. Also no one ever bothered to even pm Sheep about this matter.

Not only is this irrelevant, we note that you conveniently omitted the sentence which came before it: "No, he must have just abandoned it." I made this statement in response to a statement by Jack_www that Sheep had deleted his nation, which was incorrect simply because you cannot do so. Moreover, when I made this statement, I was unaware of the state of Sheep's internet access. As it turns out, Sheep had ample time to log in, even if only once to set his nation to vacation mode, which would have meant Sheepsta would not be deleted for another 60 days. Hardly a particularly taxing task, especially given that he seems to have had quite enough time to take part in NESing.

That is pure speculation on your part thus I omitted it. We are dealing with facts here not the assumptions of others. Assupmtions should hold no weight in this case.

You offer up your own rebuttal here. This is an RPG. Alecrast made the claim that the elections happened. This was then validated by other nations (Both traditional Alecrast allies, and allies of the USS before its fall). Therefore, it happened. We again re-iterate that Alecrast and Bulbagarden both have made the statement that they are willing to re-do the referendums under the supervision of other major nations in the region.
As for the claim made by Jackson, "Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.", again, this is addressed by the RPG. Alecrast and Bulbagarden have already made their intentions clear, and those intentions were certainly not for any sort of permanent occupation. The nations of North and South Sheepsta are Protectorates, which have been given the right to choose their own path if they wish to.

I could also claim that elections were held in Sheepsta and people elected me as their ruler, so what is the point? This is means nothing. North and South Sheepsta are still part of Alecrast and Bulbagarden and their troops are still occupying those lands, there actions speak of their intentions all right,

Voices of opposition which quickly melted away. Indeed, Wine, which is *NOT* a traditional Alecrast ally, has since taken a rather different position, and the issues he raised are of course being addressed to the best of Bulbagarden's abilities (Abilities which are stretched to the limit when they are forced to fund a war as well as welfare one must add).



We count 3. Only 2 of which are recognised as legitimate. One of which is you Jackson. And even you have called the actions of Sheepsta "insane". This does not constitute a many. Nor does this make any difference. That nations might not like Alecrast having made North Sheepsta its protectorate (Again, we must point out that these are not occupied territories as New Sheepsta's propaganda ministry is quick to claim) does not make it any less legitimate.

Wine still opposed the occupation of Sheepsta, this is what we are talking about, not the current war between New SHeepsta and Alecrast.
The nations who spoke out about this were:
Kindom of Wine
United States of Jackson
Upper Riis
Iguana Fire
And of course New Sheepsta.

AS for those supporting your cause you have 2 or 3 nations on your side.

[GeneralTacticus]

Your Client has claimed to have given Sheep one weeks waring before moving in on Sheepsta, we would like to see the proof that this warning was in fact given. Also no one ever bothered to even pm Sheep about this matter.

Nobody has ever claimed that Sheep was given one week's warning. What was said was that Archaic waited one full wek after Sheepsta had been deleted to see if he was coming back before he moved in.

That is pure speculation on your part thus I omitted it. We are dealing with facts here not the assumptions of others. Assupmtions should hold no weight in this case.

You claimed that I had admitted that I knew Sheep was sick, and that he might not have had time to log in to keep his nation running. This also was pure speculation, as I had no idea (and nor to the best of my knowledge, did anyone else except Sheep) of when and for how long Sheep could use the internet.

I could also claim that elections were held in Sheepsta and people elected me as their ruler, so what is the point?

Like everything else, it is RP. If you had wanted to move in, and had a plausible reason why the people would vote for you (in this case, the collapse of the government, and the demonstratable success Alecrast has enjoyed in rebuilding shattered nations), then you could say it happened and it would have happened.

This is means nothing. North and South Sheepsta are still part of Alecrast and Bulbagarden

No they aren't. They are closer to being so than most other nations, but they aren't provinces or colonies. They elect their own governments as well as helping to elect them in Alecrast and Bulbagarden, and they have their own institutions seperate from these two nations.

and their troops are still occupying those lands, there actions speak of their intentions all right,

The troops from Alecrast and Bulbagarden would have been soon withdrawn had it not been for the war. The withdrawal was under way when the New Sheepstan leadership began their offensive, and this is the sole reason why it was reversed.

Wine still opposed the occupation of Sheepsta, this is what we are talking about, not the current war between New SHeepsta and Alecrast.
The nations who spoke out about this were:
Kindom of Wine
United States of Jackson
Upper Riis
Iguana Fire
And of course New Sheepsta.

AS for those supporting your cause you have 2 or 3 nations on your side.

This was an error on our part; we had not accurately counting the numbers of nations opposed as opposed to in favour of our position.

However, this remains irrelevant. The number of nations supporting a particular act does not make it legal or illegal, and in any case, less than one tenth of all the nations in Apolyton have taken a position on this issue. Neither side have any real right to claim that 'many' nations support or oppose this action.

Originally posted by Drogue
Actually, under British law, that would be the case. As Mother, she would have rights to the child, unless they could prove she was unfit. Whether forgetfullness is enough to claim that, would be disputed.

By our statement before, we meant to imply that it would be nothing different from abandoning (ie. "forgetting") the child by the roadside, then wanting the child back when you had second thoughts.

Originally posted by Drogue
I hope you intend to offer evidence/quotes etc. for this.

Of course. They are presented below in order of date. We would like to note here that we are only claiming that the referendum happened, and that is all these quotes are intended to prove. The validity of the referendums is not something we personally question, however to prove to the region that they were without tampering as some have feared at points, we are, as we have stated previous, willing to hold a 2nd referendum with closer international monitoring.

Originally posted by Archaic
the request of the citizens council and following a free referendum on the issue, the Commonwealth of Alecrast has absorbed the northern half of the former Sheepsta nation as a regional protectorate, with the Federation of Bulbagarden taking over administration of the southern regions.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
In case the representative from Iguana Fire has not noticed, the annexation was conducted after the dissolution of the Sheepstan democracy, and was ratified democratically by the Sheepstan people.

Originally posted by Dark Cloud
The Foreign Minister of Iguana Fire wishes for a second, internationally monitored election, having right to believe that the previous election was rigged since it was rushed into the space of a week.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
We ask for a second election to be held, and internationally monitorized as we believe that the previous one was done too fast, and as we don't believe in those new methods as they are unsafe to a possible attack from hackers.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

Originally posted by Sheep
Until you recongnise this the New Sheepstan government cuts all communicationc to Centralis, and will work for the liberation of Sheepstan lands still under foreign occupation. The truth is this is an illegal occupation and unles the Apolyton community does not put an end to it we shall be forced to act.

The occupation was ratified by the people of Sheepsta, whatever your propaganda ministry may claim, and Alecrast has repeatedly stated that it is prepared to hold a second vote - it is you who demands that the people be denied this.

[quote] Originally posted by Archaic

Originally posted by Sheep
Indeed more evidence of the ALecrastian and Bulbagarden attempts to oppress the rights of the Sheepstan people. All the Centralis people and the other OSDN members can say is lets hold a vote!


More like rid South Sheepsta of people already declared as traitors by the government of the United States of Sheepsta before it dissolved. I don't know how many of those 5 million are actually your followers, and how many are those civilians who you've taken it upon yourselves to take over the rule off illegitimatly, but Bulbagarden is well within the mandate the citizens of Sheepsta gave it when it passed the referendum making it an Alecrast (North) and Bulbagarden (South) protectorate.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
The lies of the USSS grow ever more ridiculous. Not onyl are they guilty of blatant historical fabrication over the issue of the parliament, in whose dissolution Alecrast had no involvement, they are also openly lying about the vote which was held and confirmed by numerous witnesses from the itnernaitonal media and by people who took part. The fact that you didn't like the result is irrelevant to whether it actually took place.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
To: Bulbagarden

The Kingdom of Wine welcomes the Bulbagarden decision of allowing independence to their part of Sheepsta, and we shall accept Bulbagarden "protection" over that part of the island for the time being, as long as, once the nation is ready to have complete independence, Bulbagarden will agree to peacefully withdraw from it.

This has done a lot to restore good relationship between your nation and the Kingdom of Wine

To: New Sheepsta

It is hard for us to believe you are the follower of the free government of the USS, until we will not be able to see some improvements in the way you treat your own citizens, we can not consider you the right government of Sheepsta island

To: Alecrast

We welcome your move as well, you showed a great wisdom in allowing independence to North Sheepsta, we hope that you, as well as Bulbagarden, will also agree in withdrawing from your proctetorate position once the new nation will be able to stand on its own feets.

Saluti
King Giovanni Bennati da Moncalieri
Prime Minister: Grand Duke Francesco Morelli da Pinerolo

Originally posted by Dark Cloud
|TO: BULBAGARDEN|

The grand and glorious holy empire of Iguana Fire supports your withdrawl from sheppsta regions and your willigness to leave troops to preserve the peace. IGuana fire admires your willingness for economic sacrifice

|TO NEW SHEEPSTA|
IGuana fire will be sending a delegation to your nation and wil remain friendly, provided you allow trade to flourish between your nation and ours without tariff barriers... WE respect your soverignity.

|TO ALECRAST|
IGuana fire would like to remind Alecrast that yes, many (At least 5 million) sheepstans did not wish annexation; and hopes that alecrast will direct all future interantional relations to the regional president.

OOC: Sheep why are you even insulted? Your nation ceased to exist THere's no problem here IT's just game-play

Originally posted by Archaic
O.O.C. The state of North and South Sheepsta being regional protectorates of Alecrast and Bulbagarden was how this situation was meant to be from the beginning. I guess I just didn't explain it properly earlier.

To Wine from Bulbagarden & Alecrast:
These were our positions from the very beginning, and you have our guarentee that we shall withdraw once the nations are ready for and wish for independance.

To Iguana Fire from Alecrast:
Yes, we are aware of this fact, however these 5 million were in the minority compared to the overall referendum vote. (And indeed, most of those 5 million were declared traitors to Sheepsta by the previous government for their support of Cardinal Ew, and thus inelligable to vote in the referendum.)

Originally posted by Archaic
Finally, "Ew Bastard" makes his most henious claim, saying "You need only look at the pretense of Alecrast as they stormed unpeacefully the Sheepstan homeland. While they maimed and killed thousands if not millions of Sheepstan civilians. They sought only to annex Sheepsta outright."

This is repeating his false claims from earlier. We came in at the request of the people of Sheepsta, after a referendum by the people which ratified their status as our protectorates. While these elections have since been contested by the region, a second election is being set up by members of observer nations around the region, and we feel confident that they will again vote for us to stay. If they don't....then we'll move out. We are here because we were asked to be here.
As for the claims of maiming and killing, there is only one group of people here who have done that. These paramilitaries. I'm sure we all remember when they slaughtered Alecrast civilians who were taken to Sheepsta after the attacks at the start of the Sheepstan Civil War, not to mention those pictures that we showed you earlier. Independant Inspectors from around the region have already validated this, and have validated these claims of "Ew Bastard" as being patently false. Why he continues to make them is beyond us.
As for the claims we wish to annex Sheepsta, I believe this has already been addressed.

Originally posted by Archaic
Alecrast and Bulbagarden both moved in at the request of the Sheepstan Citizens Council following the dissolution of the Sheepstan Government in the wake of numerous terrorist attacks by the New Sheepstan forces. The status of North and South Sheepsta as protectorates of the two nations was ratified by a general referendum. The results of this referendum have never been invalidated, though some countries have had concerns over the process. Both Alecrast and Bulbagarden have expressed a desire for full compliance with the wishes of the court and the region, and are willing to hold repeat referendums with international minders to again ratify these states being protectorates.

We should be able to get a few more quotes to back up this position if necessary. To re-iterate, the general concencus around the region would seem to be that they happened. If they were valid or not is not a question easily answered, and so both Alecrast and Bulbagarden have made it known repeatedly that they will have a 2nd referendum held, with international monitors.

Originally posted by Drogue
How would this work? Could you give us details?

It's the position of Alecrast and Bulbagarden that the court should probably be the one to decide the best method for these polls, given the dissatisfaction with the previous electronic system employed in the first one by the other nations in the region.

Originally posted by Drogue
Not perminant? Do you intend to give them back? Or to the international community?

It is the wish of both Alecrast and Bulbagarden that both North and South Sheepsta eventually return to total self-governance. If this involves a period of time in which they are under the administration of the court, so be it. However, if by "give them back" you mean give them to Sheep, we have no intention to do any such thing.

Originally posted by Drogue
Edit: I am sorry if this seems like I am being harshly questioning. That is not the case, I simply saw a couple of points which I would like clarification on. I am not arguing for or against anyone, that is for the opposition council, but I would like to bring things up at times, for a few more details.

We have no problem with this. This is, afterall, a complex issue.



Also, one final thing we have to add.

Give me my nation back and consign thos ****ed up nations that you made to piss me off into the pit to be destoyed. Either that or give me those new nations as they are made out of my own nation.

You had no right. I was in an out of hospital. You could of wrote me a PM but made absolutley no effort. I will track you down if I have to. After all you live in the same city. Give me back waht is rightfull mine and I will hold no grudge, if you don;t I will hound you every night I am online until you grow tired and finally leave.

The above was a private message sent to Archaic by Sheep. Practically a death threat as you can see, and over which Sheep should probably have been banned from the forums to begin with.

[Drogue]

Thank you for that GeneralTacticus. I agree, it is obvious that the election happened, however many countries have said they are not sure as to the results, in the sense that they may not have been carried out fairly. Thus a 2nd election seems in order, at some point. But as to the nature of this, it will have to be discussed by the Judges.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
The above was a private message sent to Archaic by Sheep. Practically a death threat as you can see, and over which Sheep should probably have been banned from the forums to begin with.

IIRC PM's are not subject to moderation, nor to banning or not. I accept that what Sheep said was harsh and an overreation, but we must consider extenuating circumstances, and the heat of the moment.

Now to Jack_www's cross and evidence. When a party has finished its case, would it please end its post with "'s case rests". That is when all evidence they wish to produce has been produced, but before closing speeches. After this, the oppositionhas one post to make present any more evidence/arguments (since you can put everything left into one post) before closing speeches. I realise this is a complex issue, but if we could be finishing relatively soon it would be good, as none of us wish to see the dragged on for a long time.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Nobody has ever claimed that Sheep was given one week's warning. What was said was that Archaic waited one full wek after Sheepsta had been deleted to see if he was coming back before he moved in.

Well then how would sheep know that anyone whould take Sheepsta at Apolyton? He did not and had no warning. Usually when someone finds something they have to give notice that they found it so who ever lost it can claim it, and then if no one comes foward the person who found it can keep it. But of course your client never did this.

This was an error on our part; we had not accurately counting the numbers of nations opposed as opposed to in favour of our position.

However, this remains irrelevant. The number of nations supporting a particular act does not make it legal or illegal, and in any case, less than one tenth of all the nations in Apolyton have taken a position on this issue. Neither side have any real right to claim that 'many' nations support or oppose this action.

Well we are showing that many nations of Apolyton were opposed to this move. Without any warning to consultation of the nations of Apolyton you moved in. No one even knew what in the world was going on untill you had taken over completly. The only real way to gage support would be through the nations of Apolyton, since we do not have any means to conduct polls of people of a nation in Nation States. We would like to ask, how in the world could one conduct such a poll, because see that this is impossible. Also all the nations you quoted as accepting this so called election where taking the word of your client, that was the only evidence it happened.

The occupation was ratified by the people of Sheepsta, whatever your propaganda ministry may claim, and Alecrast has repeatedly stated that it is prepared to hold a second vote - it is you who demands that the people be denied this.

Again these polls do not hold any weight in this court case, we ask the Judges of this court to through out this evidence and not use it in considering who should have Sheepsta. We also ask that this pm not be used etheir, and if I am right it is against apolyton rules to post the contents of any pm with out the other person permission. THus we also ask that this evidence be taken out of the record.

Also we will soon be ending our case once the court has spoken on these two issues on the evidence that we brought up.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Jack_www
Again these polls do not hold any weight in this court case, we ask the Judges of this court to through out this evidence and not use it in considering who should have Sheepsta.

Since this court is RP, we will not throw it out, but will accept it, taking into account the fact that many nations have questioned it's validity, as has been posted. It is RP, and will be taken as such. We understand that part of this trial is physical, and concerns the nations, but part is still RP.

Originally posted by Jack_www
We also ask that this pm not be used etheir, and if I am right it is against apolyton rules to post the contents of any pm with out the other person permission. THus we also ask that this evidence be taken out of the record.

So stricken. If I get Mod powers, then I will delete it, but at the moment, consider it stricken from the record. PMs are private, and that privacy must be respected. If it is serious enough for police in RL to get involved, then that is a different issue, but for the purposes of this trial, we cannot accept PMs as evidence. I accept that GT wants to attack Sheep's character, as use that as evidence, but we must also look at the mitigating circumstances, and the fact that Sheep was acting in the heat of the moment, and say that it is not a correct portrayal of Sheep's character, and is private. Hence, it is stricken.

Originally posted by Jack_www
Also we will soon be ending our case once the court has spoken on these two issues on the evidence that we brought up.

Which 2 issues? The one about the PM, and the polls? Well, the polls wil have to be discussed by the judges, and will form part of our verdict, but I cannot rule on here.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Drogue

Since this court is RP, we will not throw it out, but will accept it, taking into account the fact that many nations have questioned it's validity, as has been posted. It is RP, and will be taken as such. We understand that part of this trial is physical, and concerns the nations, but part is still RP.


So stricken. If I get Mod powers, then I will delete it, but at the moment, consider it stricken from the record. PMs are private, and that privacy must be respected. If it is serious enough for police in RL to get involved, then that is a different issue, but for the purposes of this trial, we cannot accept PMs as evidence. I accept that GT wants to attack Sheep's character, as use that as evidence, but we must also look at the mitigating circumstances, and the fact that Sheep was acting in the heat of the moment, and say that it is not a correct portrayal of Sheep's character, and is private. Hence, it is stricken.


Which 2 issues? The one about the PM, and the polls? Well, the polls wil have to be discussed by the judges, and will form part of our verdict, but I cannot rule on here.

Well you havee spoken on these issues. We will now await any further responses from the other side and then soon after rest our case.

[Drogue]

O.K. Thank you. Would GeneralTacticus like to respond?

[GeneralTacticus]

Well then how would sheep know that anyone whould take Sheepsta at Apolyton? He did not and had no warning. Usually when someone finds something they have to give notice that they found it so who ever lost it can claim it, and then if no one comes foward the person who found it can keep it. But of course your client never did this.

Why would Sheep have to be given notice when he clearly abandoned it. The onus was on him to keep proper care of his nation by logging in at least once every 21 days so that it would not be deleted from the system, but he didn't do that. After the nation was deleted, it ceased to be his, and now belonged to the whole region to do with it as they would RP wise. The same would go for every other nation that's been deleted from the region, and there's certainly been many of those.

Well we are showing that many nations of Apolyton were opposed to this move. Without any warning to consultation of the nations of Apolyton you moved in. No one even knew what in the world was going on untill you had taken over completly.

We must repeat, yet again, that this is irrelevant. While other nations might prefer to have been consulted, they were not required to be, and my client chose not to consult them. You may think he should not have, but he was under no obligation to.

Alecrast's case rests.

[Drogue]

Can we have the last post from Jack_www now, and then give us a day or two for judging and I will post the verdict. Thank you for your orderly discussion during this trial. I hope we can come to a good and fair decision.

[Jack_www]

Closing Arguments

The facts speak of themselves, all of Sheepsta belongs to New Sheepsta. My client was ill and in the hospital, and had no idea anyone would come and take over his nation while he was away. When he found out that Sheepsta was taken over there was nothing that he could do about it. Many here in Nation States knew Sheep was sick, but did not even brothered to ask him if he was still going to keep his nation of Sheepsta.

Alecrast had no legal basis to invade Sheepsta in the first place. Alecrast acted on their own in order so that they could gain more land and set up a government friendly towards them. Many nations opposed the move made by Alecrast and voiced this many times.

Alecrast election they held in Sheepsta is not trusted by anyone accept of course their allies. Many nations have called for a second election, but this was never done. This so called election does not give Alecrast any legal rights over Sheepsta.

In conculsion we hope that this court rules and hands down the right decission. If this action is allowed to stand it will allow other nations to do simmilar occupations after holding riged elections to vote themselves into power. Their fore we urge the court to carefully consider this when making its decession.

We rest our case.

[Drogue]

Thank you for a coherant, thorough, and well argued trial. Verdict will follow as soon as possible, and will be posted here.