Humanitas (A New Civilization Game)

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by GeoModder
The game!!!

Don't be greedy.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Don't be greedy.

If I was greedy, I might have choosen to call you banned.

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Cornax
Master of Orion had the well-nigh perfect research model. (After the initial research there was an increasing chance each turn to make the breakthrough.) Also, there was an interest rate to the accumulated research points based on each field's share of research funding (IIRC).

In Civ type games, the interest rate could reflect of freedom of speech (information) in each culture and exchange of information between cultures. These go up with communications technologies (compare scientists of 1905 [letters and newspapers, communications lag of months to share any findings] to those of 2005 [e-mail, blogs, findings can be shared as soon as they can be written up]).

Civ type games are completely missing one important ingredient, though: effect of private enterprise on information dissemination. When nations are in peace, entrepreneurs keep tabs on inventions and purchase licenses instead of inventing everything themselves. Also, even the knowledge that something is possible seems to make it easier to make the breakthrough (heavier-than-air aircrafts come to mind), and newspapers all over the world reported the first flight in 1912, stimulating emulators in the Old World.

In effect, this diffusion of different inventions and discoveries would be free research points to other nations that are researching the tech in question, and after however-many turns each tech would become freely available. In ancient ages there is no diffusion, as there is so little contact between people, in classical times the delay could be several decades, in medieval and renaissance perhaps a decade or two, and in modern times at most several years.

***

The worst shortcoming of every single Civ game so far, though, is this: Regardless of the chosen goverment type, every single nation in Civilization is in effect a socialist state (the player, human or computer, owns all of the resources and dictates their use). This results in the micromanagement paralysis.

What I would like to see is a bit more Sim type game where the player can revert to Civ type micromanagement hell by selecting socialism (Communism or Fascism, or tribes, clans, monarchies, whatever in earlier ages) as the government type. In republics, democracies, constitutional monarchies and so forth, the nation would do its own thing (in practice, each city would develop itself and the surrounding area automatically more or less efficiently, depending on the age and government type), and the players would be limited to the tax income and deficit spending (which results in inflation), and could concentrate on whichever aspect game they prefer (guns or butter; manufacturing armies and waging war or subsidizing cities and developing economy to become an economic superpower).

Cornax, a lot of what you say is already part of our plans in Humanitas, but how it will work exactly we haven't quite gotten to yet.

One thing we are planning to do is implement immigration and also migration between your own cities.

Humanitas is kind of set up so that your people do their own thing, they will do as they like, if you have a city of 100,000 people, and the city is getting attacked a lot, then a number of the people could leave that city and enter another one - or enter another civilization's city (if that civilization allows immigration).

[Vince278]

[Kaak]

that's really cool sn00p..cornax, micromanaging is what seperates the men from the boys

[Adm.Naismith]

Re: Humanitas (A New Civilization Game)

Edit: well, sorry, but for a strange browser effect, I wrote this post missing a good half of others pages. I understand it's now a bit late, but I won't change it anyway, because I'm almost sleeping and not sure to do a proper cutting job.

Originally posted by Sn00py
We have infact been working on this for the past 2 years, we have developed 3 and almost 4 different versions of Humanitas; we would do this because we would not be happy with the way the game was becoming.

That's IMO the best way to show both you can turn the dream of so many of us into a real, solid fact!

Originally posted by Sn00py
I want to show you some basic images of the game. I want you to tell me what you think of the terrain, the size, the scale, the way it looks, because me and the programmer want to know we are producing something that people can be happy with.

The graphics looks great, but the scale really depends from so many points...
Do you count on this kind of "main screen" to show units and city info to the player? Non easy to grab at first look, IMHO.
Do you think to use resources/special terrain effects? With a smooth graphic like these examples, it seems difficult to evaluate when a terrain tile change in a different one (with different gameplay effects!).
I have a good feeling, but I'm not ready to acclaim...

Originally posted by Sn00py
Does it look better than Civ3? Even Civ4?

The terrain kills Civ III hands down; Civ 4 is a different beast because of 3D concept and isn't still polished, so I dunno.
If you want a more deep comment you should show to us a couple of units / terrain resources (if any).
A more modern city example will help, too: you know, Civ is all about moving unit from city to city (to found or conquer) on a "map" background.
When the map needs to be the terrain, you are in charge of a difficult task, but if your terrain needs to be the map... you are in serius trouble, I'm afraid. Can The Force be With You (TM).

Originally posted by Sn00py
Judging from the look, do you think the gameplay might very well turn out to be good?

The gameplay is not the gameplay, too. Go back to study The Basic Game Rules Book, reading the full words and not only looking at the picture! (just kidding). I hope the best for you, at least because it'll mean a good alternative civ for us

No, really: we can't redo this every single alternative Civ show its screenshot around here. :ban You have The List and The List 2 to grab early concept, and I bet you already used it into these 2 years.

You'll have plenty of comments about your current implementation when we'll have more info to better aim to the target.
Shooting into the dark is not a good idea, IMO: lot of "noise" for your mind, lot of unnecessary doubt, temptation and may be hard rework. Keep something for the sequel of the franchise!

[Kinjiru]

Originally posted by Sn00py

One thing we are planning to do is implement immigration and also migration between your own cities.

Humanitas is kind of set up so that your people do their own thing, they will do as they like, if you have a city of 100,000 people, and the city is getting attacked a lot, then a number of the people could leave that city and enter another one - or enter another civilization's city (if that civilization allows immigration).

Glad to see you are modeling this Snoopy (and friend). I recall reading a journal article around a year ago that indicated that for most nations, population is naturally dispersed along a predictable curve. Meaning that the difference in population between the biggest city and the second biggest city is slightly higher than the difference in population between the second and third biggest cities, which is slightly bigger than the difference in population between the third and fourth biggest cities.

I immediately thought of the implications of such a model in a civ-style game. No more three tiered pop-booms, the player is forced to truly specialize their cities, your own internal migrations can impact your trade, etc, etc...

[GAZ082]

I dont really care much about the graphic thingie, they must look just ok, like your Civ III terrain (well, they were more than OK, they kicked CIV III terrain ass).

What i really like and most CIVers is gameplay. Gameplay gameplay gameplay. I dont know if this game is gonna be sold, but as far i can see, its aimed to the pro gamer (like Paradox games) and that deserves a

[Impaler[WrG]]

I had a little though on your Age consepts, perhaps all ages could be named after Materials as we have historicaly done for some of them. This has the benifit of making "future" ages a snap as you can think up Uber-materials such as Adamantium and Plasta-Steel to your hearts content. Heres my sugjested list.

Stone Age (Paleolithic)
Pottery Age (Neolithic)
Copper Age (First agriculture)
Bronze Age (Early Empires)
Iron Age (Pre-Roman)
Lead Age (Late Rome & Dark Ages)
Quicksilver Age (Renisanse)
Steel Age (Industrial Revolution)
Aluminum Age (20th Century)
Plastic Age (Modern)
Diamond Age (Future)

This is roughly the order in which the metals were utalized, the Iron and Bronse ages are ofcorse much smaller then the "original" time frames as they have been broken down into smaller blocks. Ofcorse Lead and Quicksilver and Plastic were never Primary tool making materials as Iron, Bronze and Steel have been but they have been the Defining materials of their day. The Diamond Age is ofcorse an idea from a book many of you are familiar with, I though that would be kind of fitting as a Furture age but any other hypothetical material could easily be substituted.

[DrSpike]

So is this game done yet?

[Unspeakable Horror]

[DrSpike]

What in god's name has happened to the forum style for this thread?

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by DrSpike
What in god's name has happened to the forum style for this thread?

[Addled Platypus]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
I like long and epic games- I just don't think that the stone age could ever be very interesting. I would rather have more detail in modern ages. And considering the amount of art that you guys have to do (redesigning the display for every age) I fear that you might not ever finish if you focus on too many ages.

--Another possible 'tree' could be:

Stone Age Meta-Age (though I hate the stone age)
The Invention of Fire (civilization begins)
Animal Domestication
Vegetable Domestication (farming)
The Invention of the Wheel (and plow!)

Bronze Age

Iron Age

Classical

Late Antiquity (aka Dark Ages)

Medieval (early/middle/late)

Renaissance

Age of Slavery
Ever notice how all nations seem to need this to advance. Example: Russia had serfs before industrialization, the USA had slaves, etc.

Age of Enlightenment

Age of imperialism

Industrial

Digital Revolution

Globalism Revolution

sounds like a winner

BTW great terrain

units baby...show me your units

[Nikolai]

I just reread this thread Snoopy. This project of yours certainly looks and sounds promising! I wish you all luck and hope our ideas here gives good solutions and ideas that can make this game ever greater. I wonder on something though: you have worked on this game for 2 years, and does so in your spare time as I understand. Now, the major problem for the other (abandoned) civ projects have always been too little time and that things take so much time that things eventually runs out in the sand. Have you planned how to do this with only 2 persons on the team? Can't it be a bit much for so few? And the end polish is of course important, do you plan a beta phase with more people or do you plan to do this all by yourselves all the way? Good luck any way!