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  • #16
    Thank you all for your most interesting contributions!

    I have a question: that Franco-German Alliance, did it ever exist??

    Germany and France suggested an alliance, and I acted positive towards the suggestion, but I never had any intention to keep those promises; I knew I would have to advance to the continent if I ever would wish to claim any new land.
    Anyway, I persuaded France and Germany to give me Norway and Belgium, and suggested France would go for Spain and Portugal, and Germany for Holland and Denmark.
    So, I took Brest and Belgium. France and Germany were quite upset of course, but I knew I could handle the situation. I conquered Paris and Holland next, with the help of France's NMR.

    In the game I very early (before the first move, actually) came to the conclusion that there would be a huge world war in Europe. I saw myself, England and Austria fighting together against France and Germany. I then concluded that the latter two would contact Turkey, to create two alliances. I then thought it to be crucial for us to get Italy on our side, which is why I urged Austria not to attack him.

    But neither France nor Germany were as tough as I had imagined. France were crippled early by England, and Germany was soon surrounded by hostile forces.
    But soon Amjayee told me that he and Germany were planning to attack me. This was not very good, since I had told The Diplomat that I thought Elmo was a madman, and that I would probably be forced to attack him sooner or later. I realised that I had been giving my enemy vital information. But lucky for me France trusted England. Something he shouldn’t have done. France was conquered, before he really had time to do anything.
    Right from the very first contact Elmo was hostile to me. I kindly asked him to split Scandinavia between us, but for some reason he rejected! Why? Because even then he seemed to have had plans to attack me.
    A lot has been said about the mistakes made by The Diplomat. And I agree: especially his NMR of Fall 1902, resulting in non-conquest of Spain and disbandment of the French fleet in MAO was a disaster that finished him.
    Yet the actions of his ally(?) Germany were at least equally important!

    According to Joker, Elmo didn't assent to a partition of Scandinavia. Yet he didn't use his fleet in Denmark in Fall 1901 to prevent the Russians from conquering Sweden! Had he ordered F Den-Swe, the Russians would have acquired one build less.

    In Spring 1902 Germany publicly declared war on England:
    "Do not ever trust the English again! They will betray
    anyone. I will now be in war with them. I repeat, please do not trust those evil people living abroad the North Sea.
    "
    And he gave these orders to his 5 units:
    A Hol sta, A Boh - Vie[#], A Mun - Bur[#], A Ber - Pru, F Den - NTH[#]

    With only one fleet, making war against England, was rather difficult. He could nevertheless have attacked Belgium with his A Hol. This would have resulted in a stand-off on the North Sea.
    And did he help his ally(?) France in any positive way?
    The order A Mun-Bur didn't in any way alleviate the French distress. To me it seems a stab in the back, though it could have been just the result of poor communications!

    With his other units he made war on Austria (Vienna) and Russia (Prussia). To me it seems it was Joker that had started the Russo-German war by invading Germany, threatening the German capital.
    So with only five units, Elmo acted aggressively against four other countries.(!)

    What could an experienced player have done, seriously intending to help France and defending against the Russian invasion at the same time? What about -still Spring 1902- :
    A Hol - Bel[#], A Boh - Sil, A Mun - Ruh, A Ber S A Boh - Sil, F Den - NTH[#] ?
    As a result, the North Sea would have remained empty, a serious attack on Belgium could have been launched in the Fall, the Russian invasion rolled back, while France would indirectly have been supported!
    The only risk would have been the French army in Burgundy, that could possibly have invaded Munich. I would have been willing to take the chance.

    Without a French NMR in Fall 1902 and with effective communications between Paris and Berlin, England could still have conquered Paris, but not without the risk of losing either Brest or Belgium. Holland couldn't have fallen to England in any possible way. And finally: Austria would have had better posibilities for manoeuvring vis-à-vis its Russian ally.

    A remark about the relative strenghts of the Great Powers:
    Opinions differ, but Russia is generally considered the strongest and Italy as the weakest power. Statistics confirm this picture.
    France is generally counted among the stronger powers!

    Sending in weak orders is always preferable above no orders at all. Forgetting to submit retreat orders (NRO) has also caused many unexpected turns in this game.
    Jews have the Torah, Zionists have a State

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    • #17
      I agree with Leland in agreeing with Amjayee that diplomacy is indeed the most important part of the game, and in disagreeing with him regarding whether fixed alliances should be included in the game. To me the greatest asset that this game has is the fact that nothing is fixed, which again makes diplomacy even more important.


      S. kroeze,

      Interesting theory you have. Actually I don't know if it did. I think it did, but I am not at all sure.

      And I too was puzzled over some of Elmo's moves - especially his not proceeding with his fleet to Sweden. According to everything I knew (amjayee's info and Elmo's hostility) he should do so. And yet he didn't.

      And you are right that it was me that started the war with Germany. I concluded that no matter what I did Elmo would attack me sooner or later, so attacking him would just give me the benefit.
      "It is not enough to be alive. Sunshine, freedom and a little flower you have got to have."
      - Hans Christian Andersen

      GGS Website

      Comment


      • #18
        To answer S. Kroeze's question re: franco-german alliance,

        As far as I can remember there never was a formal alliance between france (me) and Germany (Elmo). So, to answer your question: no alliance between France and Germany!

        However, after England attacked me, I tried to get help from Germany. But Germany was unwilling or unable to help me in any significant way.

        I sure hope that we can get another game going fairly soon. I want a chance to redeem myself now that I know the game a bit better. And, I want my revenge!
        'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
        G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

        Comment


        • #19
          Wow! What a confusion about my turns?!?!

          First of all, my general choise of allies was the worst part of the game for me. I was so unlucky finding any allies, that I became the enemy of virtually anyone in Europe.

          First I wanted to ally England. I contacted him about it and he seemed to agree. As he explained in his (great!) statements here, we made a deal on the first-to-capture Supply Centres to conquer. When he inmedeatly did the opposite, I had lost my first ally. I tryed to ally him 2 or 3 moves after this incidend, and we made peace, but once again he back stabed me. I trusted him all the time because he had great arguments (excusses that is, afterwards) and he seem to have more friends. I hoped that I could gain more friends with this allience. I didn't though.

          A interesting thing said by Joker is that I was planning to attack his Russian land. I never said it to anyone, and I ever thought of heading for Austria first. Also, it seems other's gave loads of information about me that was never said by me. A French allienance???? I never even tough or communicated about this!! He once contacted me to help him, but he was helpless and I neede all my armies to expand. I really wanted to get more supply centres in the beginning, because I saw that as the first thing to do. Like in civ2: first expand and grow, and then attack.

          France... Not too much to say actually. We never had too much contact. I never allied him, neither did I make war. Espacially in the beginning we both wanted to ally some border-powers, since we both were in the centre of Europe, but never with each other. The move to Burgundy was never to stab the France, but I wanted to make new options to other supply centres since I had too expand. I was stuck around me, surrounded by mostly Russian units.

          The Russian were indeed my enemies. From the beginning I choose not to ally him. Not because I don't like Joker or anything ( ), but I had to choose a direction to expand. I was hoping I cound get Scandinavia and thereafter Russia. The point I went wrong was where I chose to defend my land rather than expand. The move where I was heading for Sweden was cancelled by me, because I was afraid to lose land to both Russia and, again England. Amjayee was a 'friend' then and I asked him to protect Scandinavia from Russian hands, but he said he didn't want to.

          Since then I had no alliences. Even the other civs, Italy, Turkey and Austria, didn't want to help me. You all though I was to aggresive! Maybe I was, but I just couldn't stand that England was betraying me, so I hoped other's would understand my situation. With no allies at all, it went downwards fast. After France, both Russia and England crushed me totally since I wasn't able to protect me against so many units. I tryed to slip behind Russian armies and infiltrate their home territory, but I got stuck. I even tryed to get him ally me rather then Austria and betrayed Austria with there 'secret frienship' with me (which was a real secret allience), but Austria didn't want to attack Russia and Russia was not impressed.

          Overall, I first trusted far too much others, Amjayee contacted me once with his message that 'you cannot trust anyone, that why you have to forgive me taking your land', and later on I had noone to trust and rely on. This was so frustrating that I lost faith and I just wanted I could get other alliences to crush. Without any result tough.

          Well. I hope this makes my opinion more clear. When I was playing I wrote all my descisions and why I made them in a .txt, but my computer crashed a while ago and I needed to format it, so I lost it. Also, all my Diplomatic mail was there, lost too. I was good a read!

          That said about Sanglots. What is sanglots anyway, apart from the name of our game?

          I think diplomatic skills are a very important thing. Maybe the most important one, since you make allies with it. But the most interesting was, in my eyes, the gossip that went aroud. Anyone was speculating and I remember I got the info that England alone allied Russia, France, Austria AND Turkey.

          Looking forward: I really hope civ3 will have some sort of multiplayer functionality. It would be great to play a civ3 game with you! Otherwise, we might want to set up some other multiplayer game, like civ2 (gold edition), other tbs games or maybe even something totally different.

          Elmo

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          • #20
            That said about Sanglots. What is sanglots anyway, apart from the name of our game?
            I also wandered that. Does it mean anything in dutch?

            I think diplomatic skills are a very important thing. Maybe the most important one, since you make allies with it. But the most interesting was, in my eyes, the gossip that went aroud. Anyone was speculating and I remember I got the info that England alone allied Russia, France, Austria AND Turkey.
            lol, yep, gossip was everything

            I have preserved my emails and I think they are a good read. However there are problems with publishing them:

            - I need to ask for approval from the person I was corresponding with
            - they may reviel someones crucial style or strategy or way of thinking or something. Personaly, I dont mind since I do not plan on playing any diplogame but someone may mind someone else finding out just how deep the knife went in ones back or something

            Looking forward: I really hope civ3 will have some sort of multiplayer functionality. It would be great to play a civ3 game with you! Otherwise, we might want to set up some other multiplayer game, like civ2 (gold edition), other tbs games or maybe even something totally different.
            due to time, I d prefer PBEM. We will see. Maybe even GGS PBEM. Eventually. But words wont lead us anywhere. Only actions mean something. See you on a meeting.

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            • #21
              I have no problem if you publish the email - it would be fun to see what others have been writing. Also I have all the email stored, could also I publish them?

              I prefer PBEM games for civ multiplay also, though that kinds of games would of course take foor-ever.

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              • #22
                Yeah, a game of Civ3 online would be great. It would indeed take forever, but who cares? Alternatively we could play a scenario together - I suppose that would be possible.

                And I am still hoping for another game of Diplomacy.

                Let's see... Who is in? And who can we find outside our little group?

                I haven't spent time outside the GGS forum for a lot of time now, so I don't really know anybody at Apolyton apart from you guys.

                Diplomat - perhabs you could ask someone that you find worthy to play with?
                "It is not enough to be alive. Sunshine, freedom and a little flower you have got to have."
                - Hans Christian Andersen

                GGS Website

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                • #23
                  If I'm correct, there are already three people willing to join a second diplomact game: The Joker, The Diplomat and I. Somebody else out of the original group?
                  Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                  Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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                  • #24
                    Yeah. And last I checked Mark was interested too - I hope he still is.

                    So that means we need at least 3 more people, plus a substitute.

                    Does any of you know any?
                    "It is not enough to be alive. Sunshine, freedom and a little flower you have got to have."
                    - Hans Christian Andersen

                    GGS Website

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      This is irrelevent, but it didn't seem worth it to start a new topic.

                      There's a 404 error in the GGS website - is anyone else having it or is it just on this computer?
                      If at first you succeed, you should be doing something tougher.

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                      • #26
                        There is Diplomacy forum on this site, you can look there for players too.


                        Nath, good observation, it does not work for me either. Elmo?

                        Btw, yeah amjayee you can publish everything from me.

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                        • #27
                          You can count me in for a new round of Diplomacy. As for my diplomatic mail... well, some of it was useless drivel sent only as a lame attempt to amuse my allies/enemies. My correspondence with Russia, Germany and France is probably worth publishing, the rest of it may be less interesting to read.

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                          • #28
                            As I told in the changing destination thread, I can join the game as a volunteer standby, so, not taking part right away but rather if someone quits...

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                            • #29
                              3 more to go then! And we already have a reserve.
                              Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                              Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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                              • #30
                                The problem with going to the Diplomacy forum could be they are all veterans there. We wouldn't stand a chance.
                                Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                                Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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