Announcement

**ElmoTheElk** · September 26, 2001, 14:08

German en game statement

-- 'official' end game statement --

Greetings Great Powers Of Europe!

Altough it's been a long time I met you, I can still remember the time I was the proud leader of Germany that was negotiating with you all the time. I can remember war, friendship, pacts, treads and a lot of back-stabbing.

It's just that, back-stabbing, what turned out to be the dead of the German empire. Allies were quickly made, but even quiker broken, so eventually I turned out to be alone at the moment that I expected help from others.

Amjayee of the great Englisch power was the first to take my land, quiet unexpected. From there, it just went downwards. With the Russian breath in my neck, I couldn't do anything else than pray and ask for help, but at 1904, the pressure was simply too high. I lost 3 mighty armies and with that all of my land.

Some day though, all of you have might watch a different challege. The challenge of keeping your people happy. And that will be the point in history, where the real nationality of the inhabitants will come out. Then, the native German people will stand up for thereselves and show you what they all want to say now: "We don't belong to strangers like England and Russia, we are German, and we will stay German as long as the German spirit will live. From our selves, trough our children, and there children, and so on. That, my gentleman, is what we German stand for."

My sincere regards,

ElmoTheElk, king og the German people

-- end of 'official' statement, beginning of 'unofficial' statement --

Hey ggsers,

Well, it turned out to be Russia after all! Congratulations Joker! You turned out to be a great player, diplomic AND military. You can be proud of your Russian empire. I also want to thank all other players, especially our 'ggs-guest' The Diplomat for joining our game. Too bad it didn't work out for you. We just seem to had the weakest starting point in the centre of Europe, huh?

I don't have time to play another game now, FAR too busy therefor, but maybe we will ever try this again. Or we test our skills on a ggs demo then!!!

I espacially liked the negotiations and the role playing. If we can create such atmosphere in ggs, I am sure ggs diplo-model will be GREAT!

Again, thanks to all for playing and see you around on the boards and irc,

ElmoTheElk

-- end of 'unofficial' end game statement --

**chrispie** · September 27, 2001, 11:26

Greetings great powers of Europe ... well I am pleased I must admit at the eventual outcome of my fine and pleasent ( not so green

) homeland.

From early on with the backstabbing of the traitorous Austrians and those dispicible Russians I thought my fine empire would soon see ruins - but we survived - and even after my unfortunate incident with the swiss bank account and strange disappearance of the fine cutlery from the kitchens of my magnificent palace the mighty Turkish power did not succumb!

*end of official stuff*

Well done Joker!!

Hmm, my two biggest rivals in-game came out 1 and 2, I think there's a lesson in here somewhere, for the life of me I can't think what it is

something about giving up early etc. etc. I blame my poor time management skills, and err my dodgy keyboard making me give wrong orders or something

Hope to speak to you all soon, when I find the damn time!

**VetLegion** · September 28, 2001, 18:03

well, I dont know what to write officially. so I ll just write my observations about the game.

I started in a good position. Italy has a position somewhat simmilar to Britain. I thought that Austria was going to get chopped up pretty fast and that strongest positions are Russia, Britain and Italy.

My plan was to get hold of Tunis and either Spain or Portugal. I proposed that to French king, claiming the royal heritage and all that

and writing "King of Spain and Portugal" as part of my title

He however claimed territories as hes and promised peace if I let them go. I by no means wanted to have any winter without recruits so I declined. If France was allowed to have their way, they would outpower me in the meditteranean and knowing I can't chop anything off from Austria in time I would be in disadvantage.

So I decided to press hard against the French. Additional benefit of that is that making war and having peace cost me same resources - that one unit I put to the west.

I made a point of having warm relationships with Kings on the opposite side of my neighbours; I exchanged a lot of mail with England and Turkey. All in all it looked pretty good.

One thing I got a bit wrong is my idea that you should keep your backstabing for the end - playing without it would be work of a master player. So I watched carefouly what kind of commitments I make, so that I do not brake my word sooner then possible. For example I made non attack pact with austria only on a yearly base, although they proposed peace to me. I was thinking that perhaps integrity of the player actions may have aditional leverage in later game. But now when I think of it, since you really can not trust anyone, why would you be trusted? And isnt it all quite much of a gamble, since you can not predict players actions based on their previous actions, or something. I was definitely thinking that there must be some sort of logic in the thing, but now I dont see any.

To continue, England suggested to leave France alone for start and then sneak attack them later, but I opted for declaration of war. This would give England significant maneuverable space, and we agreed on separation on France. I was to get Spain and Portugal and him the north of the country, after which we were to attack the German. We agreed that at no time will he question medditeranean and I will not do so for north. how ambitious

Austrian played excellent opening moves too, and Turkey was left in a trap which could not be resolved without outer intervention.

Then I got no new unit and things started to go down. Situation worsened as I pursued the new unit to tunis and could not help my Turkish ally. Eventually I got involved in a struggle with Austria and it was pretty fun

Then the english started to close on me from the north. I expected a demand for Portugal or Spain or both as it was more then obvious that I can not defend them, but I got stabbed

so my planned gentle retreat, giving away Portugal, Spain and Marseilles as needed crumbled.

As a last effort I tried to persuade Germany to leave a province to me which was better then leaving it to England or Russia who backstabbed him.

Well, I used all my persuasion skill on that, but it failed as it failed on France earlier where I have also been playing on emotions

I ll quote myself to French "the best way you will revenge to England is by disbanding army in Marseille and giving me a fighting chance! At least I declared war to you on the beginning openly!"

obviously it did not work in any of those cases, but I wrote some dramatic mail I am proud off

All options failing, Italy went down quick.
I am satisfied with negotiations with my allies and enemies. well, except diplomat who made a point of not replying to my melodramatic mail to which all that effort has gone

Anyways a great expirience. And I wont be playing another game of diplomacy anytime soon. The fact is the thing is too random for me. I like a game where I can predict what happenes and where I see result of my actions and where I can improve. As a whole, Diplomacy is game of great design, but its just not my taste.

**VetLegion** · September 28, 2001, 18:12

btw., in my opinion Austria played best. Considering a ****ty position they are in, it is amazing. Bravo Leland!

also I have to add congrats to Russian for playing wise and England for being bold and taking action. The Sultan also played well, if I had that extra unit it be Turkey in Vienna

but hey, we tried

France didnt stand a chance, so nothing revolutionary there. sorry diplomat

**Leland** · September 28, 2001, 20:57

This was certainly an interesting experience. I think I've developed a profound interest in this game, and I'm sure to play Diplomacy in the future, in one way or the other... Special thanks for S. Kroeze for his patience and for introducing this magnificent game to us all.

AS for SANGLOTS... well, it seems we all stumbled quite a lot, especially in the beginning. The NMRs were a big problem and led to the downfall of France, Germany and Italy (among other things), so the whole game was characterized less by brilliant strategies than they were by accidents and mistakes. I never NMRed myself, but I very often left sending the orders in the last minute and ignoring diplomatic relationships altogether... had I been more attentive the game would perhaps been more interesting to the rest of you. But all in all, it was fun to play. Some thoughts about individual countries:

England: Managed to grow strong because France made some big mistakes in the early game (especially the NMRs), and also because of very good tactical play. Their big mistake they did was to trust Russia near the end. I was at war with England most of the time and there wasn't much Diplomacy going on, not even in the end when I could've proposed an alliance against Russia... I just did not trust the amjayee to keep any suggestion of an alliance to himself. Too bad, I think that if he had proposed one himself I would've taken it.

France: NMRs and some mistakes in the early game ruined his chances of victory, even though France seems to be in a good starting position. I blame myself for not getting onvolved with France earlier, because it is a natural ally of Austria-Hungary... but I did manage to convince them to attack Italy in the end (you must've been wondering about that, VetLegion

)... and actually, had the Diplomat not NMRed in his last turns he would've had a chance of hanging on for at least a year longer.

Germany: Elmo started out well, but made a crucial mistake by mobilizing his forces towards Austria-Hungary. This, I believe, marked the turning point for Germany because I was forced to enhance my alliance with Russia and direct some valuable armies to watch out my northern border instead of going against Italy or Russia. My original plan was to doublecross Russia sooner or later, I only wish Germany would've believed my proposals...

Italy: I don't know what to say about this... VetLegion's playing style was very erratic. Some excellent moves (at one point I considered him to be the greatest threat to Austria-Hungary), but also NMRs and very unexpected manouvers. Italy could've struggled a lot longer and eventually overrun Austria with the help of Turkey, there was no doubt about it, but made some blunders (such as not writing the retreat order for that fleet in Ionian Sea) that eventually led to his downfall. I also believe that I made the biggest of my own tactical mistakes with Italy... letting them take Trieste was one. It is a very bad idea to let an enemy army roaming around your unprotected home supply centers, take my word for it!

Then again, I also got the most thrills out of expecting what Italy would do next.

Turkey: Stabbing Turkey in the beginning is something I do not regret. Turkey and Italy would've crushed Austria-Hungary like a bug if I let them even close. Heck, had they played their cards right they would've crushed me anyway, so I could take no chances with Balkans. Turkey ended up in a very good defensive position, and chrispie's style of play seemed to be very defensive too... he should've taken Rumania. Had he done that, I would've tried to make an alliance with him to attack Russia. Due to the end I kept waiting for the Turkish units to move in a favourable position for me to backstab Russia, but that never happened... even in the end when Mark took over I tried to hint that attacking Sevastopol would be the only viable strategy for him. Too bad Turkey ended up in Anarchy.

Russia: A very trustworthy ally. It seems that Joker did the diplomacy better than the rest (at least by far better than myself), and that is why Russia in the end controlled the largest chunk of land. Interestingly, I found his strategy to be not on par with the diplomatic relations... if Turkey had not NMRed in the end, I would've wanted to keep going to see if I could overcome the Russian Bear. Anyway, this illustrates very well that Diplomacy is not just a game of tactics, the diplomatic behind-the-scenes action is just as important and very often even more important than what goes on in the map. Well played.

Austria-Hungary: My own country, on restrospect, started in a bad position. Like everyone, I goofed up some in the beginning, but all in all I think I made less mistakes than the players in average, which was basicly what kept me in the game so long. I perhaps should've invested more on diplomatic relations and made stronger alliances with France and Germany, as well as not been such a backstabber all the time. There was an interesting exchange of emails between myself and Joker regarding the numerous ways I was scheming against Russia... all the times I had tried to stab him came haunting me at once, that was rather chilly. If the game started all over again, I would be a lot more careful and about suggesting alliances, when I would I would be more detailed and throrough, I would lie less and keep up a more honest image. Just like the Joker did from the start. Hmm. With my tactics and the Joker's diplomatic skills we could rule the Europe...

!

That's all for now... just for the record, I stopped by only to comment SANGLOTS, I do not think I am able to participate in GGS anytime soon. Maybe closer to november... or december... or... *sigh*

"Leland"

**The diplomat** · September 29, 2001, 13:33

It was my first game, so I did make lots of mistakes. But I really had lots of fun. Diplomacy is a really cool game, and I want to thank S. Kroeze for inviting me, and for introducing me to the game. I also want to thank all the other players for playing with me, and putting up with my newbie mistakes.

If I remember correctly, France was really put in an interesting and really tought position. It left me really scratching my head, thinking:"how in the world am I going to get out of this situation?"
Both England and Germany wanted belgium and tried to negotiate it with me. I did NOT want either to get it at first, because I figured it would give either one too much of an advantage over me. If England got Belgium, it would have a foothold on Europe from which to attack me. So, I especially did not want England to get Belgium. I had peace with England. (boy, was I suckered in that one!) I also had good relations with Germany.
So, I tried to ride the fence between England and Germany. I had really bad relations with Italy, and was going to attack her. But I needed to be careful since I was told that Italy and England were inseparable allies. I did not want to piss off England yet by attacking Italy unprovoked.

Overall, I was really in a diplomatic bind, trying to balance my relations with everyone.

If I had not moved my fleet away from Nice, I might have prevented England from surprise attacking so fast. I might have had a chance then. I would have simply tried to ally with Germany, to beat back England together. Then I would have turned on Italy.

Diplomacy is a great game. Thanks so much for letting me play. And, when you folks want to play again. Please tell me. I want to play again as soon as possible!

**The Joker** · September 29, 2001, 14:01

To the people of Europe, and the ones who used to lead them!

So this is it. Peace has finally come to Europe after a decade of war. 100 years from now the era that we are entering now will be known as pax russiana. The era where the true heir to Europe finally woke up and took what belonged to her. At least I will make sure it will.

Russia, under the leadership of Zar Joker; me, is now by far the mightiest country in Europe. Germany, half of England and some minor areas in Northern Europe is now a part of Great Russia. Although the rest of the continent is still independent – in theory, at least.

To all you new Russians out there, who might be worried about what the future will bring, I can only say one thing: Relax! You will all feel the same freedom and good life as the people of Russia always has. Who says working 18 hours a day is bad for you? So you will have something to live for! Who says starving half the year round is harmful? So you will keep your slim figure! And who says being arrested for saying what you think about yours truly is annoying? So you will keep your mouth shut!

And although some parts of Europe is still not under Russian rule, I certainly can not have the leaders who wanted my head on a plate just a few years ago stay in power. New governments, friendly to Russia, will of cause be installed in these countries. And I am sure you present and past leaders will enjoy your new life – in Siberia! HA!

Yesterday I had a thought: How come it was Russia, and not England or Germany or (he he he) Italy that ended up ruling Europe? And I realised that although historians years from now might give the credit to my brilliance, or to the productivity of the Russian farmer, or to the great education of the Russian military, I know now that it all comes down to one thing: the discipline and morale of the Russian people. Without all those Boris’ and Vladimirs out there who worked and worked for the sake of their country everything else would be worth nothing. Now all hail Mother Russia. The leader of the free world.

Wait a minute… What is that mob doing outside my palace???

**The Joker** · September 30, 2001, 09:16

Just for the record: I am writing my "unofficial" end game statement at this very moment. But due to lack of time it is not finished yet. Soon, gentlemen. Soon.

And I can't wait to see Amjayee's end game statement either.

**The Joker** · September 30, 2001, 11:19

Done!

Here it is:

It is clear that each country starts out in a completely unique situation. And I think that the “edge” powers – Russia, England and (partially) Turkey has an advantage over the interior ones. Being surrounded by potential enemies is just much more difficult than having them only to one side.

In the game I very early (before the first move, actually) came to the conclusion that there would be a huge world war in Europe. I saw myself, England and Austria fighting together against France and Germany. I then concluded that the latter two would contact Turkey, to create two alliances. I then thought it to be crucial for us to get Italy on our side, which is why I urged Austria not to attack him.

But neither France nor Germany were as tough as I had imagined. France were crippled early by England, and Germany was soon surrounded by hostile forces. Unfortunately Turkey were much more difficult to conquer – even though he was fighting a superior foe – Austria and myself.

When France and Germany had been obliterated and Italy was close to that very same fate, the time had come for me to make a choice. And that was truly the most difficult time of this entire game for me. Was I to rely on England or Austria? After much consideration I realised that Austria was my only true choice, and so I backstabbed England.

The individual countries:

England
My strongest ally and most dear friend. I think Amjayee played this game in much the same way as I did: know your enemies, and – more importantly – know your friends. At the very beginning of the game I asked England to be my ally. And although we were far away from each other he agreed. That was the best thing that could happen for me in this game. Amjayee turned out to be my dearest friend. Soon he told me that France and Germany were planning to attack me, and that they had asked for his assistance. He said to me that he he would rather help me in stead, and so I asked him if we should combine our forces to fight the Franco-German alliance. Luckily he thought it to be a good idea. So we fought together. Amjayee turned out to have great tactical skills, and won one great victory after another. My progress in the war were slower, but in the end we managed to split North-western Europe – he took France, and I got, well, everything else. We agreed to stick together, and eventually turn on the rest of the world. Unfortunately for me, and (especially) for Amjayee, this didn’t happen. It couldn’t. And so I am getting to the question that to me was the most important one in this game altogether. And a question that Amjayee have propably asked himself several times: why did I turn on him? But since the answer has to do with both England, Austria and Russia, I will answer it when describing Russia – my country. But before that I have one question for you, Amjayee: Did you ever made plans to backstab me? If you did I must say that I am impressed. You gave the impression that I could trust you with everything, and so I did. Where you had been the evil of this world towards other countries, you were about as friendly and as good an ally as imaginable to me. I am sorry I had to turn on you. But as you will see below I didn’t really have a choice.

France
I didn’t have much contact with France. I contacted him early on, and he seemed friendly. But soon Amjayee told me that he and Germany were planning to attack me. This was not very good, since I had told The Diplomat that I thought Elmo was a madman, and that I would probably be forced to attack him sooner or later. I realised that I had been giving my enemy vital information. But lucky for me France trusted England. Something he shouldn’t have done. France was conquered, before he really had time to do anything.

Germany
My archnemesis. Right from the very first contact Elmo was hostile to me. I kindly asked him to split Scandinavia between us, but for some reason he rejected! Why? Because even then he seemed to have had plans to attack me. Again, England came to my assistance. Not only by attacking him, making it possible for us to wage a two front war on the central powers, but also by letting me in on classified information early on, about what the enemy was up to. Lucky for me Germany made some mistakes in the game, allowing me to build up a massive army and place it just by his borders. When England made peace with Germany, after conquering only little of his land, I was in a position where I could make a bold move that would make Germany a sitting duck. But if I made that move Germany would be able to take some of my land in stead – if Germany made the right move. So I asked Elmo for peace. I made a good excuse – that I didn’t want to fight him without the assistance of England, and that I would rather focus my attention of Turkey. And since he was under a great deal of pressure he accepted the offer. How could he do otherwise? And I was about as certain as can be that he wouldn’t stab me in the back at that point, since he was still surrounded by a superior force. So I had the clear advantage. And I used it, of cause. And soon I conquered all of Germany. And before I pushed the knife through his spine he even told me some delicate information that could compromise my relationship with Austria. It was not a big thing, but it showed that he really trusted me. And it was info that I could use to my advantage later in the game.

Italy
My relationship with Italy was much like the one I had with France – not very important. I talked a bit to Vetlegion. And early on I tried to convince him to attack France, and not to attack Austria. But that turned out not to have too much importance. Vetlegion ruled Italy in an odd way. I agree with Leland in saying that he made some of the best moves in the game. But on the other hand he was very inactive, and all the NMR’s seriously hurt his position. Eventually it seems as if he found himself surrounded by forces, that – via their higher activity level – had grown much larger than Italy. Suddenly Vetlegion was caught in a trap too big for him to escape from.

Turkey
Turkey was the annoying little mouse that could just never be caught. Right from the beginning Austria and I were determined to put an end to Chrispie’s reign of terror down south. But it just could not be done. And of cause we (especially me) made some mistakes that stopped our progress – like forgetting to write that I was supporting an Austrian army. But that is just not a good enough explanation. The thing I have come to realise is that Chris just did an incredible job defending his country. Although diplomatically isolated (did you even talk to one other great power, Chris?

) and fighting a foe vastly superior to his own he managed to survive. Obviously it also had something to do with the fact that Turkey just seems to be easy to defend. Situated in the lower corner of the map, with only 2 potential enemies, a few units placed at good spots can defend the country against nearly everything. Nothing we could do, except for hazardous moves involving great danger to our own provinces, could secure real progress in our Turkish campaign. Turkey just sat there, took up the attention of a few armies from both Austria and myself, and survived. After Chris’ sad NMR’s close to the end of the game Mark took over. And he, too, managed to defend the country in a good way. Of cause at that point Austria was growing stronger, and a few more years down the line Turkey would probably have been destroyed.

Austria
My closest neighbour. And my ally throughout the game. Austria came to me early on asking me to unite our forces and attack Turkey. And our alliance thrived through the entire game. But my relationship with Austria was by no means as good as with England. Austria did do things behind my back. And thanks to Germany in particular I was informed of that. So where I trusted England completely I was always ready to strike back at Austria, in case it got aggressive. And it was not just the backstabbing that made me nervous. The tone in which Austria’s messages were sent was never as friendly as in the messages I got from Amjayee. Amjayee was always friendly. Leland was more cool and calculative. Where England told me that of cause I could take Norway, Leland continued to clarify that the only reason I got Rumania was because he allowed me to. And if I did not do what he wanted me to he could take it back. And in numerous other small details I got the impression that Austria could not be trusted as well as I had hoped. And from what Leland has written in his post it seems I was right. Which again brings me to the question of why I chose to keep my alliance with Austria in stead of the one I had with England. And again I will say that I will answer it below. But when I had (almost) made up my mind to stick with my Austrian alliance I sent him a mail confronting him with everything I knew about his backstabbing of me. Not only the German incident, in which he had talked with Elmo about a combined Austrian and German attack on Russia that Germany told me about in the 5 minutes I was in peace with him, but also much more serious information I had gotten just a week or so before sending him the mail, in which Amjayee had told me that Austria had asked him whether they should attack me together. The reason why I had not confronted Leland with the German incident when it happened was that at that point I already knew that Germany was history. And the last thing I wanted at that point was a bad relationship with Austria. Since I had no real choice, I chose to ally with Austria. And like he had plans to stab me, I had similar plans to stab him. But I knew that when I attacked Austria I would have the world against me (maybe except for Turkey). So I knew I had to wait until I was just a few provinces away from having achieved hegemony. That is why I kept waiting, even though I knew the time where Austria would attack me would come soon enough.

Russia
My country. Why I won? I don’t know. Luck certainly has a great deal of influence. I was lucky (wise?) to ally with the two countries that ended up thriving all the way to the endgame. And I tried as hard as I could to make these alliances thrive. So in the end – where only 3 large countries remained – the two others BOTH came to me, asking us to join forces against the other. It was as good as it could be. So I had to choose. And why did I chose Austria? Well, as I see it it was not really a choice. I had to do it. But the situation – what I should do when that time came – had been bothering me right from the beginning. Even when I was not even officially at war with Germany yet, and England had just attacked France, I was wondering what I should do when both Germany and France was gone. I knew (well, hoped) that I would have all the advantages in that situation that I indeed ended up having. And for some time I had been talking with both Amjayee and Leland exchanging plans about how we together could conquer the world. Since I felt that Amjayee was by far my most trustworthy ally I thought that I would join forces with him and throw Austria into the Adriatic. But in the end I realised that that just couldn’t happen. If I allied with England Austria would end up with Turkey. And although that situation would be fine for England, it would mean that I would have just about the longest front imaginable – from Munich to Sevastopol. And that was simply a situation that I could not accept. I would be fighting almost alone, since England had forces spread around all of Western Europe. So I made the most horrible move I have made in this game, and took Liverpool. I felt bad about it. Not only because I had signed the death sentence of my dearest ally, but also because I knew that I couldn’t trust Austria anywhere near as good as I could trust England. But when I had chosen that path I had to follow it. My plans was to get up to around 14 or 15 supply centers, and then strike Austria with everything I had available. And I was hoping that I could convince Mark to join me in that strike. Of cause I had not asked him yet, but my ideas was to use the argument that the sooner we ended this game the sooner we could begin a new one. And I was sure that Mark would rather play a new, fresh game than one where Turkey had no chance to effect the outcome. Who knows if that strategy would have worked.

But why DID I win? Was I a better player than the rest of you? I don’t think so. My tactical abilities were in fact poor at best. I mean, I was doing ok when fighting 2 armies with 4 of mine. But whenever I was fighting a real, great war I was making mistake after mistake, that seriously halted my progress. This, of cause, was primarily seen in Turkey. But also against England, where I could have advanced much quicker had I made the right moves.

But on the other hand my main interest in the game was always the diplomatic part. I don’t know if I was better at this than anybody else. But I certainly used a different approach than at least Austria, and some other countries as well. From what I know only Amjayee played the game like I did. Where Austria seemed to do diplomacy on a pretty random basis, taking a chance if it came up, I used a much more systematic strategy. Right from the beginning of the game I came to the conclusion that enemies and conquering land was good. But allies were much, much better. So I entered the game being friendly to everybody. My plan was to fight only one enemy at a time, and optimally fight that enemy with all the other players. I thought that fighting either Austria with Turkey or Turkey with Austria would be a good start. Both of them contacted me, so like in the endgame all I had to do was choose. But since Germany was very aggressive towards me, and I thought fighting Germany and Austria simultaneously would be a bit too much I chose to fight with Austria, in stead of against him.

In stead of trying to find new allies and new enemies all the time I tried to keep my allies. To me that was the key to success. I was as sincere as I could be towards them. Hopefully that would mean that they would be sincere towards me too. And when I was told about Austria playing games behind my back I didn’t confront him at first. I just took the necessary precautions. All the time I tried to maintain a friendly, professional – Godfatherish – attitude towards everybody. And I decided who was to be my enemies and who was to be my friends. So since Germany was my enemy I could lie as much as I wanted towards him. But that also meant telling my allies about it. Sincerity towards your friends is great - just be sure who your friends are. So I did not lie towards England (except in the end). And I nearly did not lie towards Austria. That might have something to do with my success. Cause you need a completely clear plan if you are to lie towards an ally. 80% of the times they will be told about it, eventually.

Of cause the fact that I was sincere towards almost everybody – especially at first – even without knowing their intentions, might have made them think that I was just a goofy village idiot, and so they did not take me seriously and told me a whole bunch of stuff. Take Germany, for example. I offered a peace to them, and they blur out a whole lot of serious stuff to me about everybody. Why? Propably because they wanted to hurt my relationship with Austria and achieve a good relationship with me. But he was allied with Austria? This is a perfect example of going behind the back of an ally in hope of achieving a good relationship with another power that you do not have any idea if you can trust. I would never have done such a thing.

So perhaps being friendly actually does work in this game. At least I believe that you need a well defined plan when you do lie.

Thank you, everybody, for this game. I really, really enjoyed it. And I hope that many of you will participate in the new game that we are hopefully going to start soon.

**amjayee** · October 1, 2001, 10:06

To start with, thanks for all participants for an interesting game. Especially the diplomacy part was very enjoyable, though it was largely neglected in the end.

Many players have been disappointed in their early moves, but I think my couple first turns were my best. The first diplomacy turn was very interesting. I tried to figure out where to attack, and established connections to other players. I knew that my position in the corner was good for defense, but to make advancement I would have to conquer some surrounding land. Germany and France suggested an alliance, and I acted positive towards the suggestion, but I never had any intention to keep those promises; I knew I would have to advance to the continent if I ever would wish to claim any new land. All in all, I think in most cases it's not wise to ally with a neighboring nation, which is quite irrational, but that's how this game works.

Anyway, I persuaded France and Germany to give me Norway and Belgium, and suggested France would go for Spain and Portugal, and Germany for Holland and Denmark. This would mean Brest would be left unguarded. I thought very carefully what to do. At that point I would have to figure out my strategy. I decided that I would play aggressively and unscrupulously. I do not regret that - it might have worked. So, I decided to go for Brest and Belgium. I let France know of my first moves so they would not be very suspicious - of course that would not have worked for more experienced players. But anyway, I could still have gone for Belgium and Norway, but I decided otherwise.

My original idea was to start going to all directions from my homeland, thus creating a defense barrier. I was going to take Norway and Denmark, then Holland and possibly start conquering Northern Europe. I was contacted by Italy and Russia, both suggesting alliance - I don't remember anymore at which point, I was going to keep a diary of the game but didn't... of course I have all the emails stored, some time I will read them through. Anyway, I acted friendly towards both, though right at the beginning I was more eager to ally with Russia, partly because it looked like Russia would be stronger than Italy, but also because Russia acted more friendly towards me; at least in this matter Joker's strategy worked fine.

So I decided to ally with Russia, and eventually to backstab Italy at some point. Joker asked whether I ever thought of betraying him. The answer is quite simply no. I realised in the beginning that I would need one ally to win. I did act dishonorably in the game, but never just for the fun of it. Everything was calculated. Also, I broke no official treaties in the game; I made one peace treaty with the Germans, and kept that. Of course I lied a lot, most of all to France, Germany and Italy. But it should be realised that the diplomacy part of this game is just role play and empty talk. So, I was loyal to Russia, shared all relevant knowledge with them, and never lied to them. Like Joker said, know your enemies, know your friends; in the beginning, I did lots of diplomatic talk, and was quite aware of the situation and what were the alignments of the players. I experienced no real surprises in the game, also Joker's betrayal came as no surprise.

So, I took Brest and Belgium. France and Germany were quite upset of course, but I knew I could handle the situation. I conquered Paris and Holland next, with the help of France's NMR. At this point Germany realised his situation between me and Joker, and suggested a peace treaty. I accepted, because we had shared the Europe with Joker, and I wished to be able to concentrate on southern Europe. I also had no intention of breaking that treaty. Though if Joker had asked for help, I would have given it, because the treaty did not forbid that.

Now I started to plan the backstabbing of Italy. To Vet I lied perhaps the most, sorry for that. I admit that I should have allied with Italy and gone against Russia. When I started conquering South Europe, my armies were too far away to work together well. Also, Russia stumbled a bit in the beginning, so I might have won if I had chosen to attack her. But that's history. If Italy had been more assuring in her moves, I might have allied with her.

But ok, I conquered Portugal, explaining to Italy that I had to cut the support of French troops - quite logical. I had promised Spain, Portugal and Marseilles to them. Then I mobilized my troops to crush Italy; at this point I made an agreement with Austria to let them take the Italian mainland if they give me Marseilles and Tunis. I also intended to keep that promise for its duration, a year or two. So, I suggested that Italians would take Marseilles with my support. At this point I made the first mistake with my moves - forgot to specify the coast for Spain. If I had remembered that, I would have made a glorious move, taking three support centers at the same time. Now that failed, and perhaps cost me some precious time.

Anyway, Italy was crushed, and I reported the Russians that Austrians were conspiring against them. I guess at this point those two made the final arrangements to betray me. Russians made a suggestion that immediately ringed a warning bell. They asked permission to move a couple of fleets to Mediterranean to attack Turkey, and later Austria. That was a really foolish idea, and I knew Russians could not be so stupid to try something like that. I knew that they would propably backstab me. I considered rejecting that suggestion. But I knew then I would face a difficult war against Russians, and I wished to stay in good terms with them, so I decided to take a great risk. I let them do what they wanted, and also removed some of the defense from my homeland to assure them of my good intentions. I wished to the last that they would keep their word. At spring 1906 I was quite sure they would go to Liverpool and Edinburgh. I was very angry to myself that I had no unit to protect Liverpool. I could stop the fleet from entering Edi, but could nothing but let them take Lpl. So when I noticed that my worst fears had come true, I knew I could not win the game, but I was determined to do as much harm to Russians as I could. I think it is quite cowardly to break an alliance without declaring war. If you can't trust an ally, there's not much point in this game. This game would need a system for formal agreements and breaking them. But of course I know I got what I deserved by backstabbing other people.

So, the end game was not very interesting for me. I allied with Turkey against Austria, but the Turkish NMR's ruined the plans. I managed to predict Russian moves quite well, and could prevent them from conquering more territory, except Belgium which was a minor mistake perhaps, I don't know. I got quite tired of the game, and knew that I could not stand much longer, so I made the suggestion of ending the game, and it was accepted.

France: Did not have much chance in their position, but perhaps it has better chances than Germany has. More experienced player would not have trusted me so much. Also the NMR speeded their fall.

Germany: Appeared quite aggressive to me. Trusted me, but I had no intention to ally with them. Did not stand much chance in the central position. Could have survived longer against Russia with some consideration, but it's understandable to give up.

Russia: Very friendly, though not as useful ally as I was to them. Stumbled in the beginning with the military movements, and also in the end, allowing me to survive much longer than I should have. But made no large mistakes, and handled diplomacy well. That was perhaps the key to success. Also Russia is quite far away from other nations; that's both good and bad. They get started more slowly, but in the end game their position is strong.

Austria: Did not have much contact until the end game. Stumbled a lot with Italy and Turkey, also diplomacy part was quite inconsistent. Not very trustworthy, but survived well partly because of friendship with Russia and mistakes and NMR's of neighboring nations.

Italy: Played quite emotionally to say the least. Had quite weak starting position, and also NMR's ruined the game. Some really funny moves in the war against Austria. Might have been a good ally for me, don't know - though perhaps Austria could have beat them also without my intervention. Not bad, but did perhaps the most mistakes of us.

Turkey: Strong defensive position, and good passive playing style made them last to the end. I had not much contact with them, but they were friendly to me, and I was friendly to them. NMR's ruined both my and their strategies in the Mediterranean. Together we might have been able to turn the tide against the Austrians.

England: My homeland. Played a cool, calculative and unscrupulous role. Also a little power-hungry. Active diplomacy, careful planning, no unplanned actions. I'm very pleased in my beginning moves. If you check the 8 first turns, you see how all the units work well together in a ballet and how I maneuver the units to pump my forces to European mainland. If I just had stopped at Marseilles, I might still have had the chance of winning. Taking my units too far away and trusting in Russia were my mistakes.

Notice that those three that submitted no NMR's were the first three in the edn results.

I hope this shows that it takes some commitment to succeed in the game.

About a new game, perhaps some time but not very soon... I'm a little exhausted of Diplomacy right now. But perhaps some time...

**The Joker** · October 1, 2001, 16:23

Well, actually, Amjayee, the only move I made that I had not planned carefully WAS the attack on you. I knew from the beginning that I would have to choose between you and Austria, and since I thought you to be a much better ally than Austria I really wanted to ally with you AGAINST Austria. And by moving that fleet to the Atlantic I kept both my options open. In fact I was hoping that it would be possible for me to stall Austria for the 5 or 6 turns required for my fleet to reach the Med. And had it be possible it would have been what I had done. But then Austria gave me an ultimatum. And since I was at that time about as far from ready to go to war with Austria and Turkey simultaneously and I could not stall Austria any more I thought that I had to do so. And then it was just great that I had a fleet next to your homeland.

And actually I think that you played the game far better than the rest of us. Now I am sure that you played the game like I did - with careful planning and a strict system handling who you could betray and - more importantly - who you could not betray. On top of that you were a great tactical player - something I was not at all.

**VetLegion** · October 1, 2001, 17:49

Great observations amjayee.

What I am curious about is what does everyone think; does diplomatic performance have a significant effect on outcome of the game? I see everyone was very pragmatic and disilusioned

and folks civ3 is out in a month or two. Perhaps they will have good multiplayer and we can play a game

**amjayee** · October 2, 2001, 10:05

Well, it's nice to know that you did not plan to betray me for so long.

Anyway, for the tactical finess of my moves, I used way too much time considering my movements, at least in the beginning. I kept thinking of every possibility I had before deciding what to do. That's partly why I feel so exhausted.

Vet: I think diplomacy is the most important thing in the game. If you don't know the alignments of your enemies, you cannot predict their moves. But, if you have active diplomacy, there is such a limited set of possible moves that you can predict what the enemies (and allies) will do. I succeeded in that quite well in my opinion.

About multiplayer civ3, I would certainly wish to be able to play such a game. PBEM, perhaps?

**Leland** · October 2, 2001, 12:07

I agree that Diplomacy is the key to victory. But I disagree with amjayee that the game would need any sort of binding, formal alliances... quite the contrary, the fact that you ultimately cannot trust anyone but yourself makes the diplomatic skills of the players so important. One needs to possess sufficient negotiation skills to convince your allies (and enemies!) that whatever strategy you propose is in their best interest. And one needs to be able to look further than the next few turns to see what effect the diplomatics have on one's reputation, and position in the world... if pretty much burned all my bridges, which was a mistake. I should've been more trusthworthy. The fact that each great ower has exactly as many units as they have supply centers guarantees that if one has to make a choice between protecting his own territory and expansion, and that is what makes especially the beginning very interesting... you have a limited number of moves you can make and forging lasting alliances is a must.

But anyway, I am still convinced that Russia would've crushed England a lot sooner had they taken Liverpool earlier. My motivation for getting Russia attack England was that there was a very small chance that if one of the English fleets would've been cast out of the Mediterranean I may have penetrated Spain, Portugal and southern France faster than Russia would have been able to get the English mainland and northern par tof France. Unfortunately for me, Russia still held back, which was probably my own fault. Again, the issue of trust keeps popping up... I wonder what would've happened in an alternate world where Joker would not have given me Rumania for free and would have played more aggressively on the North-western front? We'll never know...

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