Economy Model

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by The Joker

Since some goods have a lot of different uses I have divided the goods into groups depending on how they are made:

Goods found on the ground

(Live animals) (I am not sure if I want this to be a trade good - for simplicity I think there should rather just be a "present" or "not present" for each animal on each hex (or area/region, whatever))

Meat

Cereals (I hope this means grain products, and not, well, Corn Flakes...)

Fruit and vegetables (yeah, but could we find a better word for it?)

Sugar (perhabs?)

Coffee

Tea

Cocoa

Spices

I think you exaggerate the importance of these luxury goods.

Tobacco

Hides

(Crude rubber)

Wood

Pulp and waste paper (hmm... is this used for anything?)

I guess one can make newsprint and other writing materials out of it, perhaps it can be an ingredient for some chemicals. It is definitely not found 'on the ground'!

(Olives)

Slaves (Although this has to be handled differently from the othe goods, since it involves, well, people - it can be compared with Machinery)

(Women)
I can't say I do anything but agree with VetLegion here. Honestly, women can't be considered a trade good. It is just too far out. Pretty entertaining concept, though.

'Give up this bitter animosity. Agamemnon is ready to make you ample compensation the moment you relent. If you will listen, I will enumerate the gifts he destined for you in his hut. Seven tripods, untarnished by the flames; ten talents of gold; twenty cauldrons of gleaming copper; and twelve powerful, prize-winning race-horses. He said that with nothing more than the prizes they had won for him, a man would not be badly off or short of precious gold. In addition, he will give you seven women, skilled in the fine crafts, Lesbians whom he chose for their exceptional beauty as his part of the spoils when you yourself captured the city of Lesbos. These you shall have from him, and with them the woman he took from you, the daughter of Briseus. Moreover, he will give you his solemn oath that he has never been in her bed and slept with her, as a man does, your highness, with a woman. All these gifts shall be put in your hands at once. Later, if the gods permit us to sack the great city of Priam, you must come in with us when we are sharing out the spoils, load your ship with gold and bronze to your heart's content, and pick out twenty Trojan women for yourself, the loveliest you can find after Argive Helen.'
(source: Homer: 'Iliad', transl. by E.V.Rieu,1950)

Generally I think you tend to underestimate the importance of the agricultural sector. Did you notice that in France 1950, Food and Alcoholic beverages made up almost half of all private consumption? Before 1800 Food and beverages will have been the dominant part of all consumption by a large margin everywhere.

Here is another quote about present-day Denmark:

ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

Electricity Production (1996) 45,387m. kWh. In 1996 some 3,500 wind turbines produced 4% of output.

Oil and Gas Oil production was (1996) 10.3m. tonnes. Prduction of natural gas was (1996) 6.3m. cu. metres.

Agriculture Land ownership is widely distributed. In June 1995 there were 64,426 holdings with at least 5 ha of agricultural area (or at least a production equivalent to that from 5 ha of barley). There were 12,118 small holdings (with less than 10 ha), 34,642 medium-sized holdings (10-50 ha) and 18,205 holdings with more than 50 ha.
There were 23,257 agricultural workers in 1996.
In 1996 the cultivated area was (in 1,000 ha): Grain, 1,545; pulses, 69; root crops, 154; other crops, 194; gren fodder and grass, 563; set aside 191; total cultivated area, 2716.

--1996--       Area (1,000 ha)       Production (in 1,000 tonnes)

Wheat            681               4,758

Rye              72                 343

Barley           738              3,953

Oats              32                 164

Potatoes           43             1,617

Other root crops         111          5,656

Livestock, 1996 (in 1,000): Horses, 20: cattle, 2,093: pigs, 10,842; poultry, 19,224.
Production (in 1,000 tonnes) in 1996: Milk, 4,495; butter, 57; cheese, 229; beef, 198; pork and bacon, 1,592; eggs, 88.
In 1996 tractors numbered 139,619 and combine harvesters, 28,609.

Fisheries The total value of the fish caught was (in 1m. kroner): 1996, 2,960.

INDUSTRY
The following table is of gross factor income (in 1m. kroner): 1996

Agriculture, fishing and quarrying        41,574

Agriculture, horticulture and forestry     29,190

Fishing                      2,479

Mining and quarrying             10,905

In the following table 'number of employees' refers to 24,024 local activity units including single-proprietor units (Nov. 1995):

Branch of industry        Number of employees

Food, beverages and tobacco          93,105

Textiles, wearing apparel, leather     22,428

Wood and wood products              16,281

Paper products                   62,960

Refined petroleum products             991

Chemicals and man-made fibres        28,069

Rubber and plastic products          21,365

Non-metallic mineral products        20,938

Basic metals                     58,010

Machinery and equipment              76,294

Electrical and optical equipment       46,239

Transport equipment                23,066

Furniture, other manufactures        35,679

Total manufacturing:               505,425 

Labour In 1996, 5% of the working population lived on agriculture, forestry and fishery, 19% on industries and handicrafts, 6% on construction, 18% on commerce, etc., 7% on transport and communication, and 45% on administration, professional services, etc. In 1995, 485,828 persons were employed in manufacturing. Retirement age is 67.

FOREIGN ECONOMIC RELATIONS

Imports and exports (in 1m. kroner) for 1996:

Leading commodities                       Imports     Exports

Live animals, meat and meat preparations      2,867     24,672

Dairy products, eggs                        1,602     10,089

Fish, crustaceans, etc., and preparations     7,476     13,251

Cereals and cereal preparations               1,991      5,673

Sugar, sugar preparations and honey            1,230      1,778

Coffee, tea, cocoa, spices, etc.             2,277        773

Feeding stuff for animals                   4,483      3,664

Wood and cork                                3,817        810

Textile fibres, yarns, fabrics, etc.           6,729        727

Mineral fuels, lubricants, etc.               9,737     12,889

Medicine and pharmaceutical products           5,215     13,930

Fertilizers, etc.                             1,034        409

Metals, manufacture of metals                21,111     14,316

Machinery, electrical, equipment, etc.,      64,570     67,521

Transport equipment                          21,306     13,090

Tourism In 1996, foreigners visiting Denmark spent some 19,859m. kroner. In 1996 foreigners spent 6,687,100 in hotels and 4,118,100 nights at camping sites.

Goods found in the ground

Gold ore

Iron ore

Copper ore

Aluminium ore

Uranium ore

Coal

(Gas)

(Salt)

Oil


Goods produced from other goods, or on their own

(Beverages) (is beer and Coke important enough to be a good?)

Petroleum

Electricity

(Animal oils) (not really that important, is it?)

(Vegetable oils) (ditto)

'The chief commodities in Mediterranean commerce were grain -in volume by far the most important, followed by olive oil
and perhaps wine. Egypt and North Africa were the chief sources of wheat. The oil seems to have come mainly from southern Spain. In the third century the volume of Spanish oil imported by Rome began to decline, and the Monte Testaccio contains no fragments of amphorae with date stamps later than this period. Building materials, especially the more decorative marbles, were sometimes imported by sea. There were also small quantities of high quality and relatively valuable consumers' goods, including spices, cloth and metal goods.

Trade by land was restricted to the more valuable commodities. Among them were pottery and glass, the better qualities of wool and a variety of small decorative objects which were able to bear the high cost of land transport. Large amounts of timber must have been transported not only for building construction, but also for use as fuel. The bathing establishments of the larger towns, especially of Rome, must have required immense quantities, much of which was floated down the Tiber.

Prominent in the commerce of all parts of the Empire was the trade in slaves. They had been obtained in the course of the imperial wars of conquest, but after the Empire had reached its greatest territorial extent the supply became less abundant. The price of slaves rose, and numbers were kept up by breeding (!) in the households of their rich owners. They were most numerous and cheapest along the frontiers where wars and trade with the barbarian peoples beyond yielded a continuing supply. There is some evidence in the later Empire of the enslavement of freemen, despite imperial edicts to the contrary, as impoverished peasants sold or abandoned their children in order to pay their rents and taxes.

Most of the manufacturing activities which were carried on in the Empire were, however, in the hands of free craftsmen. There is no evidence for any large-scale organisation of industry, apart from the imperial weapon and uniform factories.
(source: N.J.G.Pounds: 'An Economic History of Medieval Europe',1974)

Chemicals

Medicine

(Consumer chemicals)

(Fertilizers)

Plastics

(Paper)

Please do not doubt the importance of paper for communication, education, science, everyday life, business, etc.!

Iron

Gold

Aluminium

Uranium

Steel

Apart from Steel, which is a different commodity indeed, I wouldn't distinguish between ore and metal.

Machinery (different types? I think I have a fairly good idea on how to handle these in the econ model)

Cars

Computers

Electronics

Consumer electronics

Housing

Clothing

Long lasting consumer goods (including furniture)

(Airplanes)

(Ships)

(Scientific instruments)

Household goods? (what does this mean, really?)

This covers Furniture, Pots and Pans, China, Bedding, etc.

Pottery/Ceramics (there is in fact a huge difference between the two - pottery is ancient, ceramics is a hightech material used in space shuttles etc)

'Main Entry: 1ce·ram·ic
Pronunciation: s&-'ra-mik, esp British k&-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek keramikos, from keramos potter's clay, pottery

Date: 1850: of or relating to the manufacture of any product (as earthenware, porcelain, or brick) made essentially from a
nonmetallic mineral (as clay) by firing at a high temperature; also : of or relating to such a product '
(source: www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus)

'Ceramics are broadly defined as inorganic, nonmetallic materials that exhibit such useful properties as high strength and
hardness, high melting temperatures, chemical inertness, and low thermal and electrical conductivity but that also display
brittleness and sensitivity to flaws. As practical materials, they have a history almost as old as the human race. Traditional
ceramic products, made from common, naturally occurring minerals such as clay and sand, have long been the object of the
potter, the brickmaker, and the glazier. Modern advanced ceramics, on the other hand, are often produced under exacting
conditions in the laboratory and call into play the skills of the chemist, the physicist, and the engineer. Containing a variety of
ingredients and manipulated by a variety of processing techniques, ceramics are made into a wide range of industrial
products, from common floor tile to nuclear fuel pellets. Yet all these disparate products owe their utility to a set of properties
that are universally recognized as ceramic-like, and these properties in turn owe their existence to chemical bonds and
atomic structures that are peculiar to the material.'
(source: search.britannica.com/)

(Weapons) (for private use)

Why only for private use?

Services

Education

Medical services

Security services

Smaller consumer services

(Accounting and business services)

What about Recreation and Entertainment?

I truly cannot believe you do not want to accept Water. Before Waterworks city life was most unpleasant! Can you imagine Sumer or Egypt without Water?

[Nath]

Coffee

Tea

Cocoa

Spices

I think you exaggerate the importance of these luxury goods.

Spices and other luxury goods were quite important in ancient times, someone or the other (I can't remember who) brought pepper from India and sold it for 20 times the price in Venice or somewhere. I think that caused a conflict over trade routes.

[The Joker]

I think you exaggerate the importance of these luxury goods.

You mean Sugar, Coffee, Tea, Cocoa and Spices? Or just some of them? So you think it should be replaced by a "Luxury farming products" good? Perhabs you are right. On the other hand Nath disagrees...

What about Tobacco and Crude rubber, then? Does Crude rubber (or rubber in general) even have the importance to be included?

Pulp and waste paper:
Yeah, you are right. I just wasn't sure where to put it. I don't really think we should include it, though. Do you?

The Iliad:
HA! I just read that passage a few weeks ago in the Danish translation! It's all the stuff Agamemnon wants to give Achilleus if he will rejoin their little gang. I still, however, think using women as a trading good is a bit silly. It never had any importance to anyone except the very top social class, and it was never traded in very large quantities. Do you strongly disagree?

Food and beverages:
You are propably right. So Beverages should be a good, along with both Wine and Drinking water. Do you think that grain products should be divided into several types (wheat, corn, barley etc)? Doesn't this add too much complexity (especially when designing and programming the engine that takes care of it all) with no gameplay advantage and only little increase in realism?

Denmark:
Nice! I see where you are getting at. But please do consider my note from above. And in the list of employees in different sectors you are only including the manufacturing sector, totalling to around half a million workers out of a total labour force of 2,5 or 3 million. This is why we have to include the service sector as well (and divide it into different service types), since it employs the majority of workers in modern first world countries.

Olive oil:
Yes, perhabs it has enough importance to be included.

Pottery:
Likewise.

Paper:
Hmm... Well, Yeah. You're right.

Ore vs Metal:
Great you think so! That will simplify things!

Household goods:
Good! So these will replace Long lasting consumer goods.

Weapons:
The weapons for units will be goods as well. But they will be different. The total equipment for one unit of each type (keep in mind that there will be lots of different units types) will be one good that can be traded and produced as all other goods. So unit equipment for different units will be different goods. Add men (and training if you want) and you have a unit. However, these goods will not be demanded by anyone except governments, and perhabs partisan movements. Weapons, on the other hand, will be demanded by normal people.

Recreation and entertainment:
Good idea!

Water:
Sorry. I forgot to include it. It should be and will be, however.

[Guildmaster]

drugs & stuff

Ok, this may sound like a silly addition to the mix, but shouldn't we at least consider adding illegal narcotics as trade goods and let the civs (players?) handle them accordingly?

Of course there were the opium trade the Britain enforced on China, the coccaine cartels of South America, etc. Funny thing is, some things can fuel an economy even if the player is trying to eliminate them.
Or then are they really trying?

Ok I've been gone too long, things have changed a lot for me around here...

[amjayee]

Heh, I had lots of comments to make, but S.Kroeze already made most of them, and lots more.

I think we should have only one good for cereal products to simplify, including all those wheat, corn, barley, rice etc. They are after all quite similar to each other, economically speaking.

Vegetable and animal oil was very important in ancient times. It was used for cooking, fuel, for making soap, and possibly many other uses I'm not aware of... olive oil was the most important, but perhaps we should have a general word, like "natural oil" or something? On the other hand, oil is quite a natural product in any case... any better word?

I agree with Nath that many luxury agricultural products should be added. Their trade volume might not be very large, but they are important nevertheless. I think silk, tobacco, sugar, tea, coffee, cocoa, spices and salt will quite well justify their place.

Silk was mentioned, then I think fabrics is needed, and leather. Would these be enough? Leather would include hides, furs and the kind?

Paper is important, yes. Perhaps we should combine all paper-like products into one? Like, papyrus, parchment, early papers, and modern papers? And there would be many ways to produce it?

I think I had also more comments, but I have forgotten them. Perhaps someone should make a new list, and we could see if we agree on it?

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Try to classify not by purpose or whatever, but by means of production; Growing goods (vegetables), Animal goods, Mined goods, Light manufactured, Heavy manufactured.
Parallel to that, do the classification of purpose and the nessecity. That way you have a three-coord identifier for each good. For example, grain will be growing-food-basic, while wine will be light-manufactured-food-luxury.
Light manufactured is anything that can be produced before the industrial revolution, and therefore you don't need a biggie plant for it. Although textile, for example is both light- and heavy-manufactured - but since it *can* be manufactured using non-industrial tools, I'd classify it as light. Basically, every light-manufactured product is made in biggie plants nowadays.

[The Joker]

Pretty good idea, Mark!

And one more thing: I know I have asked you programmers this once before, a long time ago. But I have to do so again. How much computer power does it take to calculate the square root of a number? Is it a really time consuming process, or is it something that I can use as a really basic thing in the econ model? It is just that they fit perfectly for a whole lot of great things.

[S. Kroeze]

Though I think we are moving in the direction of consensus, I would like to make my position clearer. When I would be forced to select a list of only ten commodities, what choice would I make? After some thinking I came to this list (the order is arbitrary):
1 Water
2 Game/domesticated animals
3 Fish
4 Grain
5 Dairy products
6 Clothing
7 Building materials/housing
8 Wood/fuel
9 Metals
10 Slaves

Because by far the longest part of this game will take place before the Industrial Revolution, I think we should emphasize those commodities which were important under all circumstances.
Water, Game, Fish, Clothing and Wood were already in use before the 'Agricultural Revolution'.

'In all agricultural societies of our past we find that, mainly because of limitations of energy sources known and exploited, the great mass of people could hardly afford to satisfy anything but the more elementary needs, food, clothing, and housing, and even these at rather unsatisfactory levels. Correspondingly, most of the available resources are employed in agriculture, textile manufacture, and building.

Of these three sectors, agriculture is always by far the predominant one. It absorbs the greatest quota of available capital and labour. Further, it somehow represents the pivotal point around which all other activities tend to revolve. Building makes a large use of timber. And textile manufactures uses materials -wool or linen, cotton or silk- that are also produced 'in the fields'.

Thanks to the exploitation of new sources of energy, larger amounts of capital, and more efficient use of factors of production, per capita real income is vastly greater in any industrial society than in any agricultural society.

In connection with the exploitation of new kinds of energy and new prevailing consumption patterns, one observes a general decline in the relative importance of agriculture, which also suffers from the fact that the other productive sectors tend to lose their dependence on it. The building industry substitutes steel and cement for timber. The textile industry substitutes artificial fibres (rayon, dacron, etc.) for natural ones. The pharmaceutical industry substitutes chemical products for spices and herbs. Even the food industry follows the trend: vitamin pills replace natural fruits, and Coca Cola replaces wine. It has been said that before the Industrial Revolution, of all the things man used, nearly eighty per cent were derived form the plant and animal kingdom, with only about twenty per cent from the mineral kingdom. These figures cannot be accepted at their face value. But they can undoubtedly be taken as orders of magnitude. With the Industrial Revolution the situation they describe is substantially reversed. Correspondingly, both the percentage of total active population employed in agriculture and the proportion of income produced by the agricultural sector shrink markedly while a great expansion is generally experienced in the new key sectors: the chemical, the metallurgical, and the mechanical.'
(source: C.M.Cipolla: 'The Economic History of World Population',1962)

Yet the fact that a book like 'The Statesman's Yearbook 1998-99' still pays attention to take stock of the number of animals and the production of several crops tells me that even today agriculture is of fundamental importance. I just copied its pages about ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES of Denmark, only leaving out the 'Distribution of foreign trade according to countries of origin and destination'.

I also want to repeat my arguments for the importance of Animals (or actually the arguments of J.Diamond):

Why Animal domestication was one of the most important developments of human history

'They provided meat, milk products, fertilizers, land transport, leather, military assault vehicles, plow traction, and wool, as well as germs that killed previously unexposed peoples.'

'In human societies possessing domestic animals, livestock fed more people in four distinct ways: by furnishing meat, milk, and fertilizer and by pulling plows. First and most directly, domestic animals became the societies' major source of animal protein, replacing wild game. Today, for instance, Americans tend to get most of their animal protein from cows, pigs, sheep, and chickens, with game such as venison just a rare delicacy. In addition, some big domestic mammals served as sources of milk and of milk products such as butter, cheese, and yogurt. Milked mammals include the cow, sheep, goat, horse, reindeer, water buffalo, yak, and Arabian and Bactrian camels. Those mammals thereby yield several times more calories over their lifetime than if they were just slaughtered and consumed as meat.

Big domestic mammals also interacted with domestic plants in two ways to increase crop production. First, as any modern gardener or farmer still knows by experience, crop yields can be greatly increased by manure applied as fertilizer. Even with the modern availability of synthetic fertilizers produced by chemical factories, the major source of crop fertilizer today in most societies is still animal manure -especially of cows, but also of yaks and sheep. Manure has been valuable, too, as a source of fuel for fires in traditional societies.

In addition, the largest domestic mammals interacted with domestic plants to increase food production by pulling plows and thereby making it possible for people to till land that had previously been uneconomical for farming. Those plow animals were the cow, horse, water buffalo, Bali cattle, and yak/cow hybrids. Here is one example of their value: the first prehistoric farmers of central Europe, the so-called Linearbandkeramik culture that arose slightly before 5000BC, were initially confined to soils light enough to be tilled by means of hand-held digging sticks. Only over a thousand years later, with the introduction of the ox-drawn plow, were those farmers able to extend cultivation to a much wider range of heavy soils and tough sods. Similarly, Native American farmers of the North American Great Plains grew crops in the river valleys, but farming of the tough sods on the extensive uplands had to await 19th-century Europeans and their animal-drawn plows.'

'Several domestic animals yielded animal fibers -especially wool from sheep, gaots, llamas, and alpacas, and silk from silkworms. Bones of domestic animals were important raw materials for artifacts of Neolithic peoples before the development of metallurgy. Cow hides were used to make leather.

Big domestic mammals further revolutionized human society by becoming our main means of land transport until the development of railroads in the 19th century. Before animal domestication, the sole means of transporting goods and people by land was on the backs of humans. Large mammals changed that: for the first time in human history, it became possible to move heavy goods in large quantities, as well as people, rapidly overland for long distances. The domestic animals that were ridden were the horse, donkey, yak, reindeer, and Arabian and Bactrian camels. Animals of those same five species, as well as the llama, were used to bear packs. Cows and horses were hitched to wagons, while reindeer and dogs pulled sleds in the Arctic. The horse became the chief means of long-distance transport over most of Eurasia. The three domestic camel species (Arabian camel, Bactrian camel, and llama) played a similar role in areas of North Africa and Arabia, Central Asia, and the Andes, respectively.'

'Of equal importance in wars of conquest were the germs that evolved in human societies with domestic animals. Infectious diseases like smallpox, measles, and flu arose as specialized germs of humans, derived by mutations of very similar ancestral germs that had infected animals. The humans who domesticated animals were the first to fall victim to the newly evolved germs, but those humans then evolved substantial resistance to the new diseases. When such partly immune people came into contact with others who had had no previous exposure to the germs, epidemics resulted in which up to 99 percent of the previously unexposed populaton was killed. Germs thus acquired ultimately from the domestic animals played decisive roles in the European conquests of Native Americans, Australians, South Africans, and Pacific islanders.'
(source: J.Diamond;'Guns, Germs and Steel',1998)

[The Joker]

I think your list makes sence, S. Kroeze.

First, do you think we should have fish and meat as two seperate goods?

But my concern mainly rests with having live animals as a good. To do so we need to keep track of the amount of all animals (propably between 5 adn 10) in every single hex, or in every single region. And while the latter could propably be done, it would be a bit unprecise. And the first is totally impossible.

Of cause, when I think of it, you might have a point (I'm just having a revelation here ).

What I propose is that at the beginning of the game we find out what animal that exist on each hex (or other tile type, doesn't matter). Here all we need to know is whether the animal is there or not.

Then the game begins, and people can use the animals if there are any, by domesticating them. In that case we would consider the animals that are domesticated as goods, and keep track of the amount of each of these animals on a regional basis. This means we wont have overwhelming amounts of numbers that needs to be calculated.

So we CAN have live animals as trade goods. Of cause, like slaves, they would need some food (propably grain) to survive. Otherwise they would die. How many different animals do you think we should have, S. Kroeze?

And if you were to make a list of 50 - 100 goods that we should include, how would it look?

I am glad I am realizing this. It seems a lot better this way.

[Narcio]

Thank you for pointing out the domestication issue S. Kroeze.
I've been reading as much about this project as I could find in the past few days (since it has only been a few days that I known about the project.) It looks like it is aimed in a truly great direction and I am enthusiastic about it, however, until now I haven't seen any suggestions on the importance of domestication and was thinking that I would have to parse through the Guns, Germs, and Steel book myself to find appropriate quotes to show its absolute importance. Thanks S. Koreze.

I completely agree with you on this and think that perhaps a whole separate model should be used for domestication purposes. I also kinda like Joker's suggestion of having the different types of wild animals stored on the map, but these wild animals would still have to be domesticated first, then people could use them as such. Then, I think you have to change the domesticated animals into some sort of separate resource, so that wild animals and domesticated animals are sorted differently, perhaps along the line of slaves or what not. I.E. They need food, they act as a labour supply, plus all of the other things S. Kroeze mentioned from the GGS book by Jared Diamond.

Also, if you are planning on doing a more detailed domestication system, plants should like-wise fall in this category. You don't simply research farming and get all of the domesticated plants that have ever existed; it should be a slow process of selecting certain traits over thousands of years in the plants which result in better and better crops that produce more harvest then previous ones. This would also deal with the rediculous historical inaccuracies of tile improvements like in CTP for example where sometimes it is easier to not bother building the early irrigation tile improvements and simply waiting until you get agriculutural revolution and then lay down advanced farms without previously having any farming. Also, domestication of animals in early civilizations should be hard to accomplish and not necessarily be the norm for all civilizations, since most early people didn't develop domestication on their own. Rather, it started in certain areas and, due to trade and what not, spread. For example, modern domestication as we know it started mainly in the fertile crescent (to the best of my knowledge.) Some other areas developed domestication indepedently, but as far as I know, these were few and far between. How to determine which nations actually start domestication is beyond my knowledge right now, but it should be looked into. I suppose certain geographic conditions should exist i.e. good grazing land, temperature consistency, water, or even features like rivers couple with nearby mountains (as is the case in the tigris-euphrates area) et. al. Perhaps a more in dept look at Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs, and Steel could help more in this manner.

But, I could see the whole concept of domestication working like a separate tech tree in a way(with some differences of course.) You accumulate "research" from farming which in turn helps develop better strains of plants or animals. So the only way to get better farms is from having pre-existing ones that help you develop better techniques or strains of plants and animals (or something along those lines anyways.) Of course, the regular technological advancement would also play a role in the domestication techniques aswell. This is all completely off the top of my head, but I think this adds a completely new dimension to the game that would be unique and very realistic and fun to play aswell. (But feel free to slap me in the face and knock some sense back into me if im just going off on a rant here that isnt really relevant.) You could also consider doing these different strains of plants or animals as zones on the map, and when better strains are developed, they start taking over the areas previously inhabited with the less effective strains in a Darwinian method. This would also mean that no one strain would necessarily be the best, instead, certain strains might do well in one climate type, and poorly in another.

And on a completely unrelated topic, this is my first post. I have always been interested in making an innovative civ like game with almost the exact same features you guys have been describing here but have always known that I could never do it by myself. So, I would like to get involved in this project and would be willing to help in any ways I can, but I do not consider myself an expert. I just play civ type games and have lots of ideas, and so far have read part of the book which inspires this game (I will read the entire thing asap.) So, point being, don't take anything I say too seriously. Also, I do have some knowledge with C++ coding and OOP and what not, although, again, I'm no expert. BUT, I would be willing to help if I can.

[The Joker]

Welcome to the project, Narcio. It is great to hear that you are interested.

And an interesting post you made.

In the big picture I agree with you. And we have already discussed how to include domestication of animals in the game - along the lines of Mr. Diamond's book. The trick here is to make sure that it is done realistic, and yet simple.

I think that when the game begins there should be stored on each map hex (or whatever we use) what animals was located on it. We should have some animal generator included in the map generator to make sure that animals spread to all possible habitats, although not over large bodies of water.

When the game begins animal domestication should propably be a technology that could be researched (although each animal should have it's own domestication technology). How to research this I think we should leave to the research model (which we have to create some time). But I do agree that it should take some effort.

When the technology has been researched it would be possible to extract animals from each hex where an animal is present (as if it were a metal or something) by putting workers on the job. When the animals are extracted they should be tradeable as a ressource. But they would also be much more. First they could give a production bonus to farming etc (using some rule to make sure that they will grow obsolete during the late industrial revolution). Furthermore they could be used for mounted soldiers, and could even be eaten if people wanted to. And they would require food to make sure they do not die. AND their numbers would grow exponentially if they are left alone with plenty of food.

So there is enough stuff to figure out about them. And much of that is closely linked to the pop and econ models.

[ElmoTheElk]

Well, it seems you have great ideas. I like the domestication idea from Narcio with some sort of 'tech tree'.

I think I'll keep out of this discussion because you have far more knowlenge of this then I do. I just want to add that one of you should start writing a real model for it I think!

[The Joker]

I agree, Elmo.

Narcio, are you interested in beginning writing such a model?

It should propably start with the overall ideas, and gradually work into more depth.

I am currently working on the econ model with Mark, but I would definately like to help you out with ideas, constructive criticism etc.

And in the long run the "animals" model should be integrated with the econ and pop model. Right now what we need is a paper describing how animals would work, what they could be used for (of cause in a little more depth than just writing Military, production and food) and what they would require.

What do you say?

[S. Kroeze]

Dear Joker, Narcio (and others),

First, do you think we should have fish and meat as two seperate goods?

Yes, I do. Of course one could describe Fish as 'Meat from the sea', but I think that is just silly. Some cultures could have few if any domesticated animals; for these societies Fish would be a very important source of protein. And fishing requires other technical skills, like Seafaring and Salting. In many cultures Meat was actually a luxury article, reserved for the upper classes.

Of cause, when I think of it, you might have a point (I'm just having a revelation here )

I am still curious to know what you were actually thinking here, though I have some suspicions...

Then the game begins, and people can use the animals if there are any, by domesticating them. In that case we would consider the animals that are domesticated as goods, and keep track of the amount of each of these animals on a regional basis. This means we wont have overwhelming amounts of numbers that needs to be calculated.

Here I completely agree! I think keeping track of the amount by region will do. And this can be done roughly.

I am also very enthusiastic about Narcio's post. On essentials I completely agree. I hope he/you will contribute more to GGS. It is also my view, that Diamond's book contains lots of information on the subject. We can use is as our point of departure.

I also made two lists of trade goods, one of 20 and one of 40 items. Of course they are proposals.
On one issue I have changed my opinion: I found the following list of

World agricultural exports, 1929    Value(millions of $)    Percent of total

Raw cotton and linters                 1,400 mln$              11.3 %

Wheat                                    825                    6.6

Sugar, including glucose                 725                    5.8

Wool                                     700                    5.5

Coffee                                   575                    4.5

Silk                                     550                    4.4

Rubber                                   425                    3.4

Butter                                   400                    3.3

Rice                                     400                    3.3

Tobacco, raw and waste                   350                    2.8

Corn                                     250                    2.0

Enumerated items                       6,600                   49.9 %    

This told me that some luxury articles like Sugar, Coffee and Silk became quite important, at least in the 20th century.

This is my list of 20, again the order is arbitrary:
1 Water
2 Wine
3 Animals
4 Meat/Game
5 Fish
6 Dairy products
7 Wheat
8 Rice
9 Fruits/vegetables
10 Sugar/sweets
11 Cotton
12 Clothing
13 Wood
14 Metals
15 Building materials
16 Furniture
17 Housing
18 Coal
19 Slaves
20 Machinery

And this is my list of 40:
Water, Wine, Beverages
Sheep/Goats, Cattle, Horses, Meat/Game, Fish
Dairy products, Butter, Vegetable fats and oils
Wheat, Rice, Corn, Potatoes
Fruits/vegetables
Sugar/sweets, Coffee, Tobacco
Cotton, Wool, Clothing, 'Finery'
Wood, Coal, Oil/Petroleum, Electricity
Copper, Iron/Steel, Bullion
Rubber, Plastics, Chemicals
Building materials, Furniture, Housing
Slaves
Machinery, Automobiles, Electronics

As you will notice, I didn't add services to this list. Not because I do not consider them important, but because in my view they are no trade goods, though one can trade in them of course. I think they should be organised like the specialists in Civ.
A final question to consider: how many commodities do we need? How much detail is desirable?

[The Joker]

Thanks a lot.

Your post (as always) contains a lot of information, and I am in a little bit of a hurry right now, so in stead of giving some scattered remarks now I will post a thoughtfull and complete reply tomorrow.