My first rant!

[Tronq]

Don't buy CTP2 because you really liked civ2 and feel the need for more. That is just what Activision is hoping for us to do.

I think (of course I don't really know) they invested a lot of money in developing CTP1 and it may not have sold enough copies to commercially justify that investment.

So they changed the interface and some of the graphics, added diplomacy, took away the citymanagement, changed some stats and released CTP2. Without proper (expensive) playtesting, but the advantage of having the game in store before christmas is bigger then the disadvantage of bad reviews. Also you can't usualy return a game if you are dissapointed with it.

What doesn't seem to have changed are the ai and the game engine (so it's a mod really), which are
the 'difficult' parts that require high skilled (expensive) coders to develop. The manual is so cheap and useless that they even allowed it to be published on the internet.

They know their market. They know a certain number of the (six million I read somewhere) civers crave a new civ-style game so much that they will buy anything, even at $60. Add the copies sold to those who don't really know the game but buy it for some reason anyway, and Activision has made the most out of the development of CTP.

I have read some posts of people who think CTP2 is a good game. Many of the positive reactions came very soon after the release and I think you have to play a few complete games to really be able to judge. The first days after I got it I liked it too, but now I realize I was just still excited about actually having a new civ-style game. Also I think it's hard to admit you have mindlessly spend $60 on a crappy game. (This is common with scams: the victims feel so stupid they rather deny being scammed)


Wow! This must be the first rant I ever wrote! And in a foreign language even! My arguments probably aren't that strong, but I think my point makes sense: Activision is just trying to spread the cost of the development of CTP over two releases, and we the players are stuck with another lousy game.

[Dissident Aggressor]

I agree with 90% of what you are saying, but at least I only spent $30.

[Tronq]

Yeah rub it in

Actually I has my sister buy it in New York (I'm Dutch) and I haven't paid her the money back yet

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by Tronq on 11-29-2000 12:11 AM I think (of course I don't really know) they invested a lot of money in developing CTP1 and it may not have sold enough copies to commercially justify that investment.

5-600,000 copies are not enough?

quote: So they changed the interface and some of the graphics, added diplomacy, took away the citymanagement, changed some stats and released CTP2.

yeah, nothing really important or taking much time to develop...

quote: What doesn't seem to have changed are the ai and the game engine (so it's a mod really), which are the 'difficult' parts that require high skilled (expensive) coders to develop.

Azmel, are you reading this? How much do you get?

quote: The manual is so cheap and useless that they even allowed it to be published on the internet.

yeah, but after the release

quote: Also I think it's hard to admit you have mindlessly spend $60 on a crappy game. (This is common with scams: the victims feel so stupid they rather deny being scammed)

we need to organize a support group. perhaps a help phone line for emergencies too....

quote: Activision is just trying to spread the cost of the development of CTP over two releases

i believe that the ctp2 team had much more people than the ctp1 one. what do you get from that?

feel free to not like the game and post about it here, but please give us something specific of what you dont like....

[Dissident Aggressor]

what scares me the most is what the city management was like in the first game. City management is a nightmare in this one. Freakin' tabs. I prefer everything to be on one page staring me in the face. I should be able to minimize it if I need to look at the map. But I will try my best to like it since I paid money for it.

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Aggressor on 11-29-2000 02:09 AM what scares me the most is what the city management was like in the first game. City management is a nightmare in this one. Freakin' tabs. I prefer everything to be on one page staring me in the face.

i end up using the national manager and no so much the city manager...

[Dissident Aggressor]

I may have to try that. can you change production using that. And activating units is another problem for me. Is there a key on the keyboard I can use to activate the next available unit? I don't like the units manager very much. I shouldn't have to go into this just to activate any unit with movement left.

I'm going to learn the keys though I should like that much better. I not a big fan of incessant clicking. Back in my day we didn't have mice!! Our commodore 64 still got the job done though
[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited November 29, 2000).]

[Alpha Wolf]

You brought up the subject that has irked me the most. I know I have units to move but the game isnt centered on any of them (like after when I make changes using a city manager). Best I've come up with is 5 or 6 wasted clicks, on i think its the army manager, trying to find an active unit.
Also, i thought I could sleep and fortify a unit in CtP1, but it appears to be one or the other in CtP2.

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History is written by the victor.

[Tronq]

Mostly I'm dissapointed by the AI. I really can't see what changed in it compared to CTP1. The ai wasn't so good in civ2 and CTP1 either, but it was a challenge for me to grow my cities and make them usefull for either army production (to beat the stupid ai) or science/gold. In CTP2 my cities just seem to grow, stay happy and generate huge amounts of gold, whatever I do, even on impossible. Halfway the game I rushbuy everything I need.

AI_scripter pretty much sums up my problems with it: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum35/HTML/000606.html?21

Also I don't like the fact that late in the game a turn takes up to 2 minutes (my harddik is slow I must admit) because I only have the required 64MB ram. What makes CTP need more ram then civ2?

Then there are the bugs and the savegame crashes mentioned in other topics. Maybe I am just unlucky but I have experienced them all.

quote: 5-600,000 copies are not enough?

Hmmm, I don't know. Wether it's enough depends on how much they invested in it and that we will never now. How many copies did the civ2 games sell?

quote: yeah, nothing really important or taking much time to develop...

The interface is very important and they improved it quite a bit, but still it's just an interface, nothing very special. Same thing for the graphics. Looking at the textfiles I don't think the diplomacy is that complicated; it's a set of if-condition-then-action/response rules. (if you know what I mean. I am not sure if I do...) All in all I think the changes took them about a year

quote: we need to organize a support group. perhaps a help phone line for emergencies too....

If there was such a phone line I would have called it instead of posting

I called the game 'lousy' and 'crappy'. That may not be true for everybody. I just wouldn't recommend buying it if you already own CTP1 (with the mods) or civ2. And if you don't have these games, I would recommend to buy civ2 first. It will keep you busy untill civ3 arrives.


[This message has been edited by Tronq (edited November 29, 2000).]

[Dissident Aggressor]

this must be a major memory hog. I have a high end system (well my opinion). The turn games and start load time are acceptable. But my map scrolls down very slowly. It scrolls side to side fast, but not down. Is there a way to adjust this? When I'm scrolling down the terrain is black until I stop then it will appear as it is supposed to in about a second. Granted this is no major problem but I feel there should be no delay with voodoo3 3000, P3 700, 256 megs of ram, plenty of hard drive space, full intall, etc.

[marcuspeddle]

To cycle through units with movement left (or to get to the first unit after doing something in a city) press 'o' on the keyboard. It's really convenient.



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If there hadn't been women we'd still be squatting in a cave eating raw meat, because we made civilization in order to impress our girl friends. And they tolerated it and let us go ahead and play with our toys.
- - - Orson Welles

[The diplomat]

Well, I dissagree with Tronq's "review". I think he is too hard on Activision. Ctp2 is a good strategy game. The game is not perfect, no game ever is. Does it have flaws? you bet. But, as strategy/empire building games go, Ctp2 is really really good!

I will say this: Ctp2 will appeal the most to either ctp1 fans or strategy fans in general who want empire building and don't specifically care about how "civ" the game is. If you are a civ2 lover and want a game that is a true sequel to it, ctp2 will probably dissapoint you. The Call to Power series changed a lot of the civ2 techs and wonders and units. That is why I say that civ2 players who have a deep attachment for the civ2 units/techs/wonders will be dissapointed. They will miss their favorite units, techs and wonders.

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[jbs]

I still think that the memory leakage and some of the game crashes as described are related to the same reason why hot seat was pulled. Based on the rational for pulling hot seat, I predicted these types of problems. If Activision releases a patch with a working hot seat, I think that most of the memory leakage and game crashing would then be corrected. Still based on most of the reviews, especially related to the poor tech tree and problems with the averaging of city tiles, I probably will not get CTP2 even if they release a hot seat patch. For me the design of the tech tree with the units, improvements, and wonders, is the heart and soul of a civ game. CTP1 was broken and I have worked hard to fix it and don't want to reinvent the wheel with CTP2. Also from descriptions of how the game averages the city tiles, I think that aspect is plain broken. (maybe a good idea, but definitely poor implementation). Still I have heard good things about diplomacy, borders (even with some minor problems) and the expanding city radius, so the game does have some good points.

[Bkeela]

quote: I have read some posts of people who think CTP2 is a good game. Many of the positive reactions came very soon after the release and I think you have to play a few complete games to really be able to judge. The first days after I got it I liked it too, but now I realize I was just still excited about actually having a new civ-style game. Also I think it's hard to admit you have mindlessly spend $60 on a crappy game. (This is common with scams: the victims feel so stupid they rather deny being scammed)

I agree with you utterly my poor friend Tronq. In MarkG's case, his dissappointment in CTP and CTPII must have been so acute, that it caused psychosis so severe, that he is now convinced he absolutely loves the game/s.

After being stung by CTP original, I merely vowed to never buy anything Activision again. I even smashed my old Pitfall cartridges.

Bkeela.

[Jen Dragon]

What I dont like the most. Is you make a stack of artillery, 8 to 12. bombard a city with impunity, 2 or 3 turns, take city with a knight end of tactics. They need to remove ranged combat, the computer dosent react properly to it.