CtP2 Civilizations

[Stratesford]

danm perfectionists, who cares about the dutch in Santa Monica any ways?

be happy with what you have


...not!

[Bartemans]

Who cares about Santa Monica OUTSIDE the USA?

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1

[Paulypav]

Thanks Locutus, I'll have to figure out how to do that since I imagine there will be some city lists that I might want to amend.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

[red_jon]

'Head Bashed In' is an English city name?
Are you sure?

They should include a 'British' civ instead of or as well as 'English', 'Scottish' and 'Welsh'.

These 3 countries do not exist any more. Scotland, England and Wales are all parts of Britian, not their own countries.

Plus, in CTP different countries should be able to have the same head of state (queen Elizabeth II is queen of Britian and Australia, for example). This could create greater trade/ military links between the countries.



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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

[Chris Horscroft]

Thanks Bartemans - I have updated my list to follow yours. Here's my preferred Australian List. Edmund Barton is the nation's first Prime Minister. Caroline Chisholm used to be on our five dollar note, and although she wasn't a politician, I think she is a better choice than Carmen Lawrence. (But neither really bothers me).

The cities list has the national capital first, then the state and territory capitals in rough order of development (trying to balance growth and history is not always easy!). After Darwin you get into the regional centres, which again I've tried to get in rough order of development. I've tried to balance them according to location too. Anyone with a better knowledge of Aussie history is welcome to improve the list!

Note for red_jon. 'Head Bashed In' appears as a Canadian, not an English city (I didn't intend to imply that it was English). Scotland at least is a separate country, with its own legal (and now) political institutions, whilst still being part of the UK. Given the distinct histories up until the Act of Union in the eighteen century, it is certainly worth a place on its own. Queen Elisabeth 2 lists as the female leader for Jamaica, but I do not think it appropriate to use her as the female leader in CTP/CTPII for Canada or Australia, although you are correct that she is the Head of State in both countries. There are and have been in both countries female politicians and celebrities with a greater national impact. (Just as in Britain I'd suggest that Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill have been more "important" as leaders than QE2 and King George VI respectively!)


AUSTRALIAN_LEADERM_NAME "Edmund Barton"
AUSTRALIAN_LEADERF_NAME "Caroline Chisholm"
AUSTRALIAN_COUNTRY_NAME "Australia"
AUSTRALIAN_SINGULAR "Australian"
AUSTRALIAN_PLURAL "Australians"

AUSTRALIAN_CITY_1 "Canberra"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_2 "Sydney"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_3 "Hobart"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_4 "Melbourne"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_5 "Brisbane"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_6 "Perth"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_7 "Adelaide"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_8 "Darwin"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_9 "Launceston"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_10 "Newcastle"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_11 "Wollongong"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_12 "Parramatta"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_13 "Bendigo"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_14 "Ballarat"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_15 "Albany"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_16 "Geelong"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_17 "Broken Hill"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_18 "Albury"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_19 "Cairns"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_20 "Townsville"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_21 "Toowoomba"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_22 "Rockhampton"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_23 "Dubbo"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_24 "Wodonga"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_25 "Fremantle"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_26 "Alice Springs"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_27 "Goulburn"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_28 "Armidale"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_29 "Broome"
AUSTRALIAN_CITY_30 "Whyalla"
[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 25, 2000).]

[Chris Horscroft]

While a bug-free game with a poor city list is easier to live with than a badly coded game with great historical accuracy, given that there's a whole forum out here able to suggest national lists, it would be nice to think that the Activision guys can simply take advantage of our existence and use our city lists while they get on with the coding.

I know my Australian city list (last posting on previous page) isn't perfect, but I believe that it is far better than the one that was shipped!

[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 25, 2000).]

[Changmai Beagle]

Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump, Alberta, Canada is a real place - a buffalo jump and a world heritage site. It's near my home town of Pincher Creek (so named because someone lost their pincers (pliers) in the creek and someone else found them years later)

I rather liked that a number of smaller town names were included in the Canadian list, and I don't remember seeing any that weren't real places. A couple were even from Alberta. I would like to add some of our other interesting and historic place names as well - possibly:
Hairy Hill (a former buffalo hangout),
Amber Valley (an area settled by former slaves escaped from the U.S.),
Dogpound, the Hand Hills, Drumheller,
Medicine Hat (the town Kipling wrote had "all Hell for a basement" as it sits on a shallow natural gas field,
Nobleford (named after Charles Noble, the inventor of the Noble Plow - possible the most significant mechanical invention of the time),
Turtle Mountain (which fell on Frank, Alberta),
Fort Whoopup (now Lethbridge), Writing on Stone,
Pouce Coupe, Eaglesham, Tete Jaune Cache, Picture Butte, Crowsnest Pass, Kicking Horse Pass,
Spread Eagle (a school district I used to live in, Little Chicago (now Black Diamond), The County of Forty Mile, Vulcan (they actually sell Spock Ears at some of the local stores),
Coronation (named after King Edward's I believe - with street names tied to royalty),
Cypress Hills (where Sitting Bull's army came after wiping out Custer's 7th Cavalry and was met at the border and escorted to a reserve by one North West Mounted Police Constable Peach (I believe) as the local representative of law and order),
Moose Jaw, Moose Factory,
Pile of Bones (now Regina), etc.
And then there's Basta*d County Ontario - and we can't forget Batoche, either as historically significant.
Of course Newfoundland has the greatest place names, and I won't even get into them here.

[Chris Horscroft]

I stand corrected! Sounds like the designers could have picked even "worse" names than "Head Smashed In" for the Canadians! Thanks

[Changmai Beagle]

No problem. Actually I kinda like the Strayne names too, eh??

[PRoy]

A major issue that you all completely ignore is the way national groups break apart, and regain independence after being conquered.

I don't care what they call the civs, but I want my national group to survive and cause trouble for a conqueror, perhaps ultimately regaining independance.

I think it sends the wrong message that a civilization has totally lost when conquered, because conquest of a national group is rarely permanent unless its accompanied by assimilation or genocide.

In fact this is the rule not the exception. Most major civs have been defeated in war and even completely conquered, only to rise again.

I'd be inclined to say that the development of Nationalism would make it a lot more difficult for coutries to manage minority populations, without taking extraordinary measures, either positive or negative, to contain the problem.

All civs who conquer enemy cities should be able to choose any number of options, including:

1. Starve the city (genocide) or enslave it

2. Forced emigration

3. Repatriate city to its motherland

4. Set up an independant nation

5. Encourage assimilation through tolerance (the jury is still out whether this will work here in US).

The approach taken might depend on any number of things such as goverment type for the conqueror. I envision in the modern era that the trend would be toward resurrecting nations as part of peace negotiations.

I also think it would take a country with a great economy, or a very repressive one, to maintain order in a multi-ethnic society. Witness the fracturing of the former USSR when communism fell, and race riots/hate crimes in the US.

I would also love to have a certain limitted control of my peoples in conquered cities. It would be fun to have some of my people emigrate to foreign cities and possibly act as spies, with all those spy options! If I played the Chinese, I could send people to the US to get all their nuclear secrets under a "Democracy" (Clintons or Gore) but not a "Republic" (Reagan or Bushes). :P Or if I played the Mexicans, I could send a lot of people to the border areas of the US and after a couple generations have them demand to be repatriated to Mexico! [Try as they may, don't bet on it ever succeeding.]

The "melting pot" leads to harmony among all peoples, but multiculturalism leads to ethnic tension.

[Chris Horscroft]

Hey Proy,

Thanks for the manifesto. Thing is, you posted the same message on another thread a few days ago - I for one was ignoring it on the grounds of irrelevance to this discussion. Maybe in future you could simply refer to your original posting - or are you intending to place copies on every thread?


[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 30, 2000).]

[meriadoc]

I actually think that the idea of having your civilization die permanently after the loss of your last city seems a little unfair as well. How about this idea: After your last city is lost any units that you have in the field start to lose hit points (like the helicopter in Civ2). When they lose all of their hit points, they disappear. When your last unit is gone then your civilization is finally gone. How does that sound?

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The Electronic Hobbit

[Chris Horscroft]

Sounds fine to me, Meriadoc

[Maccabee2]

IMHO, I hope that CTP2 allows us to use the beautifully simple option of customizing a civilization's labels. I love the option in Civ2 whereby I can pick a civ, then type into the fields my pseudonym (leader's name, usually Sequoyah), the name of my Civ ( such as Cherokee Nation), and the adjective with which they will be addressed (logically, Cherokee.) Civ2 even allows you to type in your custom civilization's titles for each government type. ( I chose for the Cherokees titles like Shaman for Fundamentalism and Sachem for Despotism). I'm no expert on Cherokee history, but it fueled my imagination enough to make the game immensely enjoyable even though the graphics were a few generations old.
Ata, God bless you and keep you. You're right in that if someone wants to play the Cubans, they should have that option. Hence my love for Civ2's customizability. If there is any virtue in America, or in any free nation, it is genuine tolerance for others' freedom to express their opinions and tolerance for others' freedom to choose for themselves.
And now I wish to ask a quick, selfish question. Our little ranks that appear next to our names in these posts. (Settler, Chieftain, etc.) Is that based on how long we've been registered, or how many posts we've made,..... or on paying the right Apolyton power-broker? I'm confused (sounding like the tall asparagus in Veggie Tales that my kids watch).

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Maccabee2 on 11-01-2000 06:52 PM Is that based on how long we've been registered, or how many posts we've made,..... or on paying the right Apolyton power-broker?

Quick answer: number of posts
Long answer: read the faq: http://apolyton.net/forums/apolytonfaq.shtml

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- MKL
"And of course Henry The Horse dances the waltz!"
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