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dont give up yet 
i just objected a part of your post...
i just objected a part of your post...
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quote:
Originally posted by The Kaiser on 08-06-2000 07:33 AM
You guys have got me all wrong.
Ok my next to last post virtually ended up being a flame about flaming. But what I was trying to say was how I don't like how people begin their posts with a personal attack, and then end with a "if you've got nothing constructive to say" cliche.
I'm not anti CTP. I think CTP introduced a lot of interesting new idea's into the CIV genre. Competition is good in any part of life, and we know CIV3 is going to take a few leaves out of CTP's book.
But we all have to face it, that taken as a whole CTP was not a great game. It was Ok at best. And what is irratating at times is some peoples intolerance of constructive criticism, however trivial some of the topic's may appear.
When I post at 01:00 I'm sometimes a little cranky, sorry. I really hate flame wars and trolls.
I am in favor of constructive criticism but I want details, not subjective stuff.
Please don't give up, the more people we have telling Activision/Mr Ogre, et. al. what we don't like about CTP has alredy helped to build what I hope will be a better CTP2.
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Big Dave
A bad pun is its own reword.Any flames in this message are solely in the mind of the reader.Comment
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I want scenario support.
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--Single most important thing.
I want a map editor.
I want a macro language that is easier to understand. (preferably an editor to boot)
I want graphics that can be changed easily.
I want root files that can be modified using non-proprietary technology (IE .txt and .bmp files for game files).
I want a game that doesn't arrive six months too early.
I want a better interface that doesn't require 4-10 clicks more than necessary.
I want a game that draws me in and keeps me occupied
I want to go to sleep... cya later...
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quote:
Originally posted by DarthVeda on 07-25-2000 06:41 PM
Well the graphics in CtP were ahead of their time, the gameplay was way behind it's time.
I'd rather play Colonization or Civ1 over CtP, that's how bad the gameplay was, or at least what it couldn't measure up to.
What really bugs me about these screenshots is that aside from a new menu interface, the graphics look identical to the first Call to Power. I seriously doubt that CtP 1 graphics were the Apex of all graphics.
[This message has been edited by DarthVeda (edited July 25, 2000).]
This is the post that prompted me to join in and respond. It shows that Darth does have a problem with the graphics remaining unchanged. I felt I ought to challenge that because out of all the Civ games IMO CtP had the best graphics. Changing them just for the heck of it and making the action harder to take in would be a negative step. By all means suggest specific improvements provided you can think of some sensible ones to make.
Studying the screenshots more carefully I've
come to the conclusion that while similar to CtP only the Elephant, Oil and Ruby resource graphics and a couple of units are identical. All the terrain appears to have been redone and so have some of the units. Since there has been no huge shift in 2D graphical resolution since CtP I'm not sure what more you could expect? Its not like there has been a switch from ega - vga - high resolution screen sizes which happened between previous civ games. The focus is all on 3d graphics accelerators which will do little to help a civ game.
That leaves them with having to focus on making many real game improvements. I wish the same could be said for many other sequels which used the excuse of a glossy graphical upgrade to cover up the fact that the gameplay was unchanged. I see this as a good thing! Lets them spend more time improving combat mechanics instead of making it animated with an adjustable perspective.
P.S. I missed page 2 before posting this so much of it is now less relevant
Happy to see we are now focussing more on issues. I agree a bad interface will drive all but the most dedicated converts away from a game.
[This message has been edited by Grumbold (edited August 07, 2000).]To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
H.PoincaréComment
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quote:
Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-07-2000 03:14 AM
I want scenario support.
quote:
I want a map editor.
quote:
I want a macro language that is easier to understand. (preferably an editor to boot)
quote:
I want graphics that can be changed easily.
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I want root files that can be modified using non-proprietary technology (IE .txt and .bmp files for game files).
quote:
I want a game that doesn't arrive six months too early.
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I want a better interface that doesn't require 4-10 clicks more than necessary.
quote:
I want a game that draws me in and keeps me occupied
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Grumbold: I wouldn't advocate using Test of Time graphics in Civ3 like I wouldn't advocate using CtP graphics in CtP2.Comment
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Since my name is being mentioned here in connection with graphics, I want to speak for myself. True, its technically possible to edit graphics in CTP1 (though painfully, not terrain ones), but that's a far cry from it being easy. I found it an intensely frustrating experience and hope it becomes easier too.
By the way, glad to see that finally DarthVeda is making specific criticisms and recommendations, and hope thats a new trend. I agree wholeheartedly with them all though I also agree with Markos that one can see from the info released so far that many or most of them are being addressed.Comment
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Markos, most of the features DarthVeda is asking about were added by players and, as such, are a kludge. This is not to detract from the hard work that WesW, CD, Harlan and others have done. I would go so far as to say they have saved CTP.quote:
Originally posted by MarkG on 08-07-2000 08:50 AM
Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-07-2000 03:14 AM
I want scenario support.
quote:
I want a map editor.
quote:
I want a macro language that is easier to understand. (preferably an editor to boot)
quote:
I want graphics that can be changed easily.
quote:
I want root files that can be modified using non-proprietary technology (IE .txt and .bmp files for game files).
quote:
I want a game that doesn't arrive six months too early.
quote:
I want a better interface that doesn't require 4-10 clicks more than necessary.
quote:
I want a game that draws me in and keeps me occupied
What I think Darth is saying (and if he's not I am!) is that Activision needs to finish the game, not expect the paying customers to do so.
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Big Dave
A bad pun is its own reword.Any flames in this message are solely in the mind of the reader.Comment
| quote: No, I'm just here to say that I don't want this game to turn into a true sequel of call-to-power 1, if you understand what I mean... |
Ya, I think so....
| quote: On with my comparrison... One thing I really hated about the first was that I couldn't cancel out a qued move without making one in another direction. Maybe they actually fixed this?! What I really hated most was the developer's mentality that anything they leave broke will be fixed by the users. Hopefully they don't repeat this. |
Well, from what I know, they've taken in a lot of feedback and complaints and suggestions from people, esp. around here, and from many guys who have done mods for CtP, and are pretty intent on not repeating *mistakes* and addressing the issues that were put forth already, many, many times.
I guess we can only wait and see how much they actually listened, but it seems as though they have been paying very close attention...I mean, it really is in their best interests too: they have the jump on Civ3 and this game will likely be its main rival....
Kaiser:
| quote: Well looks like Nordicus has put himself in the CTP2:-Defend at all cost's cause were Holyier than thou fan club. A movement with many members in this thread, who feel the need to flame anyone who doesn't toe the party line. This is a thread about how the look of the screenshot's so far don't give us confidence that a lot has fundamentally changed about the game. If anyone doesn't like this topic, I suggest they are the ones to leave. Yes, go back to your latest Activision Club Newsletter thread! |
Well, I'm not part of any fan club and I don't see how I'm *flaming* anyone. There were lots of things I didn't like about CtP--which is why I tried to change many things about it or customize it.
I don't mind the topic
Any "holier than thou" or "defend at all costs" attitude expressed here, by anyone involved with CtP2, comes from simply knowing many details that show what a great game it is shaping up to be. Whether it will be or not, hey, we'll see. But it's looking good...and not just from how it looks....
Existence is Futile.
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C'mon Darth, you admitted the CtP graphics were ahead of their time... Now, two years on, they're still quite good - at least as good as many new games. There are better things for Activision to spend its time on.
I do have to agree with Darth though - make the graphics files easy to mod. Of course, 3d sprites will have to be more complex than the little 2d icons in Civ2 - but but much of the graphics seemed to be needlessly obscure or difficult to modify.
Without the ability to easily change graphics, the mod community is limited to a small core of active and highly skilled mod-makers. Less focused hobbyers or less graphics-literate types (I would count myself in that group) are left out...
I do have to agree with Darth though - make the graphics files easy to mod. Of course, 3d sprites will have to be more complex than the little 2d icons in Civ2 - but but much of the graphics seemed to be needlessly obscure or difficult to modify.
Without the ability to easily change graphics, the mod community is limited to a small core of active and highly skilled mod-makers. Less focused hobbyers or less graphics-literate types (I would count myself in that group) are left out...
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I agree with Darth here too...but it could be worse: they could be 3D models, then we'd all have to learn 3D Studio or something
Still, if they included more tools which would not make it so esoteric to modify, well, then I'd think it would really pay off and get more people invloved--including myself, as far as graphics go...still don't know how to make a damn sprite...and before, I didn't have PhotoShop and the old program could not attach an alpha channel, so....Yeah, I agree here too.
Still, if they included more tools which would not make it so esoteric to modify, well, then I'd think it would really pay off and get more people invloved--including myself, as far as graphics go...still don't know how to make a damn sprite...and before, I didn't have PhotoShop and the old program could not attach an alpha channel, so....Yeah, I agree here too.
Existence is Futile.
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To go off on another bit of a tangent here... how do people feel about Activisions plans to ditch space?
I mean yeah ok I see they think they bit off more than they could chew with it but why?
I always thought it was pretty cool and now it's going to disappear? That's a shame IMHO. Mind you I don't get to it often... I find it dull to continue playing when the second place Civ is so far behind...
Chris
I mean yeah ok I see they think they bit off more than they could chew with it but why?
I always thought it was pretty cool and now it's going to disappear? That's a shame IMHO. Mind you I don't get to it often... I find it dull to continue playing when the second place Civ is so far behind...
Chris
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I'm not sure how good space really was. The real shame, I believe is the lack of different altitude layers, which space was 'kinda'. This is one of the last obstacles to really cool tactical play in the civ genre, and if CtP2 had included it, it would have made for a fantastic versatility in many scenarios.
Maybe it will be in CtP2, but I'm guessing they would have said by now.
Oh well, perhaps CtP3 or Civ3.
Regarding the boring end game after being ahead, I'd suggest you read (among others) the 'root of evil' threads in this forum. Many people have contributed their ideas to stemming some of the 'once-you're-ahead' balance problems that are symptomatic among Civ games.
Maybe it will be in CtP2, but I'm guessing they would have said by now.
Oh well, perhaps CtP3 or Civ3.
Regarding the boring end game after being ahead, I'd suggest you read (among others) the 'root of evil' threads in this forum. Many people have contributed their ideas to stemming some of the 'once-you're-ahead' balance problems that are symptomatic among Civ games.
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Limey, Gedrin is right, Mr. Ogre has said that the space layer is gone. I was unimpressed by space cities, but using the layer tactically was a bunch of fun. It made finding that last city that was hiding much easier. I'm very unhappy that it won't be in CTP2. In fact, I started a thread some time back called "the missing frontier" or something like that if you want to search on it.
I'd like to see 7 or 9 layers in CTP3 (I know it's not happening in 2) so we could have 3 or 4 layers of undersea and 3 or 4 levels of atmosphere in addition to the ground layer. I'd also like to see technologies that allow subterranean tunnels/cities. And of course, the space layer returned.....
I'd like to see 7 or 9 layers in CTP3 (I know it's not happening in 2) so we could have 3 or 4 layers of undersea and 3 or 4 levels of atmosphere in addition to the ground layer. I'd also like to see technologies that allow subterranean tunnels/cities. And of course, the space layer returned.....
Any flames in this message are solely in the mind of the reader.
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why 7 or 9 when you could just as easily have 31? Particularly since we're talking about CtP3 here. You could enable and name as many layers as you needed for a scenario, etc...
BTW... you misunderstood when I was saying I wasn't sure about how good Space was in CtP1. The space layer for movement purposes was great. The idea of space cities was flawed, especially considering they ran out of 'realistic' science ideas after genetics.
What ended up being best about space was the movement and uncontested bombardment abilities that some units had. If you have extra altitude layers, you can have the same versatility.
BTW... you misunderstood when I was saying I wasn't sure about how good Space was in CtP1. The space layer for movement purposes was great. The idea of space cities was flawed, especially considering they ran out of 'realistic' science ideas after genetics.
What ended up being best about space was the movement and uncontested bombardment abilities that some units had. If you have extra altitude layers, you can have the same versatility.
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