Why are Civ snobs so against CTP2?

[Dinner]

So why are Civ snobs so against CTP2? I realize that the vast majority of people who play the Civ & CTP series are normal, well adjusted folks who can understand that different people have different ideas about what a fun turn based game is like, but, what drives such a significant minority to hate CTP2?
I like to read both the Civ3 and CTP2 forums and it seems like I can hardly post a positive thing about CTP2 without the same old anti-CTP2 people rearing their ugly heads. I've asked several if they've even bothered to play a modded game of CTP2 and almost every time they say they haven't. Yet they still presist in bashing a game they have no direct experience with! Talk about ignorance.
I've also noticed that Markos (the Civ3 moderator), who is in all other ways a great person and a good moderator, seems to dislike CTP2. I remember making a post in the Civ3 forum last October (right after Civ3 came out) asking members how they thought Civ3 stacked up against CTP2. I thought it was a valid question to ask; especially since CTP2 was the most current and direct competition to civ3. Apparently Markos disagreed though because he wrote a note saying the thread was off topic and closed it.
I alwayed assumed that asking how Civ3 compared to Civ2 & CTP would be a valuable conversation, however, it appears other people just wish CTP2 would go away...

[ZaphodBeeblebrx]

Sounds like the Religion Threads, in, Off-Topic.

Hey, do you know what that Means?

Civ, is a Religion. We should All apply for Tax-Exempt Status, in our Respective Countries!

[Martin Gühmann]

I think Marcos would move such a thread to the Apolyton Community forum, today. At this time he just closed such a thread that didn't fit into the forum entirely. Another example was the thread in which Peter asked the CTP2 community about our oppinion on the fact that Civ3 does not have something like slic. He just closed the thread saying we should continue in the Civ3 forum. Actual it was a thread of comparing Civ3 and CTP2 and it should be compared from a CTP2 standpoint.

So could try it to start a new thread about comparing CTP2 and Civ3 in the Civ3 forum and I guess you will find it soon in the community forum.

For the anti-CTP2er next time you asked if they played modded CTP2 and if they no than you should tell them to be quiet until they tried modded CTP2, because this implies that they don't have any valid arguments. But actual it is funny last time on civfanatics there was someone who bashed CTP2 and the most important problem wasn't on his list: The AI so he never really played this game.

An positive example is SirRalph he don't like CTP2 shure he has his reasons, but at least he tested modded CTP2 and it is still not his game.

-Martin

[Maquiladora]

I think not so much civ snobs but firaxis snobs. Some people who dont like ctp2, without even trying it, simply disagree at the way activision traded off the civ name to make a few pennies. Yes they did do this but this doesnt mean they didnt create a valuable addition to the civ series and i think that sid would think/say the same

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
An positive example is SirRalph he don't like CTP2 shure he has his reasons, but at least he tested modded CTP2 and it is still not his game.

Thanks for the flowers. Yes, it's not "my" game, although I didn't even try the Apolyton and WoW mods. The reasons why I don't play CtP2 anymore are

- because with the 1.21f patch Civ3 has gotten so good, that I have no desire to play other TBS games anymore
- because the features I don't like in CtP2 (long lasting ancient age, stealth units, piracy, futuristic endgame) can/will not be modded out.

On topic, I think there's no anti-CtP2 religion in the Civ3 community. And ignorance takes place at both sides. Look, CoT and some others here also bash Civ3 often and didn't even play it yet. They take their wisdom from the rant posts of the usual Civ3 whiners and their DL's. And I also got flamed in this forum several times just for civilised saying my opinion.

There are many discussions in the Civ3 forums. A big part of people (my guess is about 80%) like the game and are positive about it. Others dislike it, but instead of going away and play something else, they continue to whine about it and call this "service to the community". Imagine, if somebody came here and opened a CtP2 bashing thread twice a day? Well, bad example, because here it's pretty quiet, but... you get it. And you can be sure, after long, hot and very emotional on-topic discussions it's bound to be one of you gentlemen there, who says, how much better modded CtP2 is. This may be true, but for me it's not a wonder, why at this point usually a CtP2 flaming begins. I even made a rule of it: "No Civ3 bashing without CtP2 spam". It's true in 99% of the cases.

I don't want to excuse flames, but suggest you to think a bit about it. If you enter a flame war and add fuel to the fire, you should not be surprised to be flamed too.

[Tamerlin]

Another thread for the Newbie

Hi,

Here is a thread a newbie's opinion can be interesting, at least I think so.

Why Civ addicts are violently criticizing our dear CtP2 ?

As we agree most of them have never played a CTP2 game, is this snobbing rational ?

In my opinion yes and no.

First, I must say I'am practicing tabletop Role Playing Games, Boardgames and Wargames since 1982. When I started playing Role Playing Games, the great old Dungeons&Dragons and Advanced Dungeons&Dragons were almost the only games available in France. We played this game for a year, it was very fun but we were not entirely satisfied. Then I discovered RuneQuest II, it came as a shock. A full grown background, a fun, simple and yet realistic combat system, skills, no level and experience points... all hapiness.
When we discover something we qualify as great we like to talk about it and share our experience. So I started speaking about RuneQuest II with the roleplayers I met, I quickly discovered a binary world with, on one side, those that were playing Advanced Dungeons&Dragons and, on the other side, those that were playing other games which were, of course, pale copies of the one and only true original Role Playing Game...

It was as if an atheist was trying to convince a believer he is wrong, this kind of conversation is sure to meet a deadend. This has been admirably summed up by ZaphodBeeblebrx, this is almost a matter of religion.

Everybody here (at least the four of us interested in this thread) can draw a parallel between the "AD&D versus Other Games attitude" and the "Civ versus CtP2 attitude". Why ?

Civilization is the oldest game in the genre we are interested in, it is thus the model all the other games are compared with.
Most Civ players are entirely satisfied with the game, they are not looking for something else and are not bothered by some aspects of it.
Call to Power was named Civilization and has frequently been qualified as a Civ clone, CtP2 was very promising but was mared with awful bugs and did not met any success when Civilization 2 was still a hit. Why should someone satisfied with Civ test a bugged and underrated "copy" when he already has the "perfect" original one, the only "real" civilization game.
Among the few hard core Civers who have tested CtP and CtP2 I think most of them have not really given these games a chance. First, CtP has not been designed by Sid Meier (fatal error #1), second, if the base is similar, the concepts behind the game are very different (fatal error #2). Most of them were not looking for something else but for another, and hopefully better, Civ2 (fatal error #3).

To the contrary, most of us, CtP1&2 players, were not entirely satisfied with Civ2. CtP2 seemed a valid alternative to a game which had not evolved for a few years, I think that in a way we were ready for something else, at the very least we were open minded and thus able to accept new ideas. I guess many of us were even expecting extensive changes.

At last but not least, we should not forget we are talking about games and the passion we have for them. Being passionate means we are prone to excessive judgements and irrational opinions. But the CtP1&2 community seems more moderate than its Civ counterpart, this is certainly the reason why we feel ourselves attacked and snobbed when the Civers are talking about our favorite game.

[Tamerlin]

Hi Sir Ralph,

You have sent your post while I was writing mine. I still believe in what I've written but I think you are equally right.

Furthermore, I'am not interested in a Civ versus CtP debate, my tastes are what they are and I respect those of the others.

Though I prefer CtP2 I think there are good things in both Civ and CtP2.

The important thing is to have fun.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

There are many discussions in the Civ3 forums. A big part of people (my guess is about 80%) like the game and are positive about it. Others dislike it, but instead of going away and play something else, they continue to whine about it and call this "service to the community". Imagine, if somebody came here and opened a CtP2 bashing thread twice a day? Well, bad example, because here it's pretty quiet, but... you get it.

The reason why here is quite place is that in civ3 forums the poster says:
I dont like this...

In ctp2 forums the poster says:

Can we mod this...

As you see a much tangible and peaceful way to express his opinion

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
There are many discussions in the Civ3 forums. A big part of people (my guess is about 80%) like the game and are positive about it. Others dislike it, but instead of going away and play something else, they continue to whine about it and call this "service to the community". Imagine, if somebody came here and opened a CtP2 bashing thread twice a day? Well, bad example, because here it's pretty quiet, but... you get it.

The reason why here is quiet place is that in civ3 forums the poster says:

"I dont like this...!"

In ctp2 forums the poster says:

"Can we mod this...?"

As you see a much tangible and peaceful way to express his opinion

[Harovan]

Oh, I can see why people like the CtP series. I played CivCtP for 2 years (or even more?!) and CtP2 for one year, both unmodded, because I first had trouble with the mods. And I had a good time with both games, as I have it now with Civ3.

Now I would not even care about CtP2, if there weren't some posters reminding me constantly. There have been a dozen comparison threads (if not more) in the Civ3 fora, 100% created by CtP2 players, which were ... well ... legitim, but spammy. Many feel offended by this. Not the Civ3 people try to run down CtP2 (or do you see masses of CtP2-bashing threads by Civ3 players here), but rather vice versa.

The answer to Oerdins question in the topic is in the question itself. First, the words "Civ snobs" carry a big amount of negative hype. It's almost an insult, at least I feel this. It provokes me to answer adequate, but I will not, because I'm a guest here. And second... as I said, I don't see any CtP2 bashing here. What is he talking about?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
In ctp2 forums the poster says:

"Can we mod this...?"

Yea, I know. I already asked here to mod out the stealth units and the futuristic stuff. The answer was no.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Yea, I know. I already asked here to mod out the stealth units and the futuristic stuff. The answer was no.

Actually this is quite easy to do it.
You just need someone. I think i could reach what you want in one afternoon.

[Harovan]

Don't waste your time. It would not make me return to CtP2. I have a good game to play now.

[Pedrunn]

It is exacly the opposite of what i want in a civ/ctp game but if you start a thread in the CTP2 mod forum to discuss what you want i can do it for you.

[Pedrunn]

Ooops posted at the same time.

That ok then.