Announcement

**ElitePersian** · January 23, 2001, 19:10

I have to say im very pissed off, yet happy. Im happy because now I know 100% that Activision is going to to bankrupt thanks to a stupid decision by someone who thinks that abandonning ctp2 will actually "save" them money. This is gonna cost them BIG TIME cause all customers are gonna abandon Activision just like Activision abandonned all customers. I look forward to Activision's bankruptcy.

PS - we should be mad at ourselves too - Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me.
Activision screwed us over with CTP1, we screwed ourselves over wiht CTP2 (by buying it from Activision).
[This message has been edited by ElitePersian (edited January 23, 2001).]

**JBK** · January 24, 2001, 01:53

quote:

Originally posted by roalan on 01-22-2001 04:52 PM

Originally posted by wittlich on 01-20-2001 06:36 PM
I just signed on to check the forum....And I can't believe it!

Activision MARKETS and SELLS a MULTIPLAYER compatible game - CTP2 - which turns out NOT to be Multiplayer compatable AT ALL. We gripe, we complain, we report the problems/bugs....and their answer? Tough Titties, we're through with this game and we're moveing on to other horizons.

I've just gone through my "collection" of computer games, and guess what? I actually own 22 different games by Activision!!!

Well NO MORE.

Activision, you ROYALLY SCREWED the customers that have in the past flocked to the Activision name - I realize that I have been one of your flock...until now.

How do you expect to get away with this type of criminal activity - False advertisement for one? You are not actually expecting your sales revenues to increase in the near future?!?!

Mark my word Activision, Firaxis/Hasbro is taking note. Let's see how well they will treat their customers with the eventual release of CIV3...I have every confidence that we will not be treated the same them!!

So, on a last note, let's all move on over to the APOLYTON CIV3 Site forum, since the CTP2 is just a waste of time!

PS: Apolyton, you have done a great job cutting through the BS and for that I'm thankful and will remain a avid follower of your site

Ciao!

Have you folks forgotten Hasbro's BOTF and how there was NO support and everyone said that they would NEVER buty a Hasbro product again. How short are your memories??

**Bluevoss** · January 24, 2001, 02:08

I guess what pisses me off is how the whole industry seemed to work against the gamer in this one. Bradley games made a guide, but doesn't even touch on how the files might be modified (and omits, of course, some of the glaring bugs). Some guidebook - they were just a mouthpiece for Activision.

And then there were all the reviews. All this crap about "fine addition to the civ line" and such. How long did these guys play - 10 minutes? Or did they just read the back of the box. How could you try to review the game and NOT see some of the glaring bugs (diplomacy, population, AI)? Must be tough to cram yourself AND a word processor down into Activision's pocket like that.

I figure to hell with it. I'm just going to go back to Civ2:TOT or whatever else strikes my fancy. And when the next activision card is sent to my house, I'll just write something about CTP2 in red on it (along with some nasty words) and mail it back.

Not again, thanks.

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Bluevoss-

**Alpha Wolf** · January 24, 2001, 02:30

if anyone might want a little insight to the mindset at activision, take a look at the comments in tut2_main.slc. Looks like they knew they had some problems. I would cut and paste of the tastier pieces but i think Mark would kill me if i posted that kind of language. BTW, do not read the comments if you are easily offended.

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History is written by the victor.

**Keygen** · January 24, 2001, 11:22

What a crap!

quote:

Opening up the extensive customizability options required a level of complex code changes as well. As in all software development projects, some features from Call to Power were dropped or cut as the project unfolded, including PBEM and Hot Seat.

We have been reviewing the posts by various forum members calling for additional patches to make the AI more challenging for them, to add PBEM and Hotseat back in, and various other requests. These requests, which sound simple, are actually long, complex feature additions that would require up to 3-4 months of programming and testing time. This is not feasible, as the Call to Power II team is moving on to other projects. So there will be no additional patches, enhancements or scenarios coming from Activision. Additionally, there are no immediate plans to make an expansion or sequel.

Your excuses are rediculous!
What do you mean some features were dropped or cut?
And what do you mean by long, complex features?
Who ever said that programing and developing software was an easy and not a complex work?
There are some other game development companies out there who respect theirselves and put a great effort and hard work to fix all of their bugs and present even with a delay an acceptable game.
I work for a company which is an official testing center for Microsoft's and Lotus' programs. It is considered one of the best for both Microsoft and Lotus.
I work as a tester there and we have some software engineers too mainly for the Lotus' products and I know quit good the develpment cycle of a program. It includes a stage (the last) which is called support!
Anyway the good work comes from the engineers and the testers. Most of the problems, like features that were dropped off, features not well designed that were qualified as by design, bugs that are hard to be fixed comes from the "suits" due to time pressure of release. Well I guess this is acceptable as after the release many patches, fixes and service packs become available.
Windows 2000 took 3 years of design, programming and testing before they were released.
And a year after the release they still support it with several fixes, addons and a service pack and possible another one will follow. And it's far more complex than Call to Power 1 & 2. It took you 2 years to release it and some months to stop the support, close the case and live the program with many annoying bugs that lead even to crushes!
That is probably the definition of unprofessionalism. The way some small companies follow and end up to get sold or closed! You have certainly made yourself unreliable to the most of the civ funs after your decision not to realese a patch to fix the bugs!
Now I understand why many players call your company Crapavision or Craptivision!

quote:

None of these decisions were taken lightly, however, we feel that in the end, we have delivered a game that met the design goals of the project: an empire-building game that delivers new diplomatic features, more realistic combat, better empire management options, a new interface, and a customizable gaming engine to extend the life of the game. We thank all of you for your dedicated support and enthusiasm over the last four years. We look forward to seeing the results of the various mods and scenarios that the community is working on.

Activision

None of these decisions were taken lightly? Are you fooling us?
And from your last words it is completely obvious that you don't care about the community at all! You are just thinking that the modifiers will do the job for you and get away with it! What an arrogance!
A company's survivance is dependented on its good marketing.
You surely don't have a good one.

Well you will certainly do Firaxis far more rich with this decision

**MidKnight Lament** · January 24, 2001, 12:23

quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Wolf on 01-24-2001 01:30 AM
if anyone might want a little insight to the mindset at activision, take a look at the comments in tut2_main.slc. Looks like they knew they had some problems. I would cut and paste of the tastier pieces but i think Mark would kill me if i posted that kind of language. BTW, do not read the comments if you are easily offended.

I can't believe they let it ship with all that language in there.

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- MKL ... "And a sun that doesn't set but settles" - Augie March
Shameless Plug: http://www.poetic-license.org ............. All welcome.
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited January 24, 2001).]

**Grumbold** · January 24, 2001, 12:26

I expressed my reluctance to get involved with another Activision marketed game months ago but bought CtP2 anyway. Sadly their corporate attitude seems very focussed on forcing the development team to make cuts to maintain development schedules, releasing incomplete or untested code, issuing a quick patch if it won't cost much to fix a few glaring problems, closing down projects and moving on. They are certainly not the only ones guilty of doing so, but in recent years have been the most consistent in behaving this way. I wonder how much they will have to spend to counteract the negative publicity to their brand name?

**Martina** · January 24, 2001, 16:01

quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold on 01-24-2001 11:26 AM
I expressed my reluctance to get involved with another Activision marketed game months ago but bought CtP2 anyway.

(...)

I wonder how much they will have to spend to counteract the negative publicity to their brand name?

Not one single dollar. Why should they care ? Should they announce CTP3 in 6 months of now, the hype will be re-created by Activision and the Internet community, and you will buy again. Together with thousand others who do not belong to the Internet community and dozens of all those complaining here who will buy even though they flame Activision now.

All of us will be buying Civ III completely independet whether it's going to be a balanced game or not. And directly afterwards, people like you and me will start flaming Firaxis. Again, this will have only a minor impact on shipments. Why ? Because in the gaming industry, it's not repeat purchase what counts, but trial purchase. You are not buying Coke or Pringles - you are buying each product ONCE.

This is not marketing, this is just cleverly utilizing the stupidity of general consumers - like you and like me.

Looking forward to 1000 flaming posts as answers on this message. Again, it will not change one single purchase decision for CTP2 whatever game is currently out there made by Activision.

**wheathin** · January 24, 2001, 16:32

I think Martina has a good point: even if we have purchased dozens of computer games, we are all continually buying a new product for the first time. We look for clues to quality (one thing a slavish devotion to the name of Sid does provide: a mark of decent quality) and read reviews. But each purchase is a gamble. The game makers can't test a game on every combination of hardware - there is always a risk that an otherwise stable game just won't work on *your* machine.

So test a game, ask your friends, read the online forums, don't buy the first week a game is out, and read reviews. Activision folded its tent quickly enough on CtP (sure, two patches, but it needed more!)
The solution is not to gripe about it here. Instead, go to sites where the *next* Activision game is being discussed, and remind the readers of Activision's history of releasing half-baked games and then abandoning them.

**Keygen** · January 25, 2001, 05:14

Well, I like computer games a lot as you do and I prefer to buy the original game rather a cheap copy of it. So I bought CTP2 just because I loved playing CTP1!
But I must admite that CTP2 hasn't the "feel" of CTP1 but if a good patch had released including some features included in CTP1, fix those bugs, change the design of some anoying elements as the Message tab or the extra window for city management or better AI challenge it would be far more better than CTP1.
And that's the idea of releasing a continue to a sucessful game. To add new features and make it a better experience than the previous one.
So if CTP3 or any civ type game comes from Activision I would certainly first get it from a friend, hire it from a store or buy a cheap copy of it before I even thing of buying the original.
There are many great games out there that might be worth more to buy them than the Activision's future craps!

**ucel** · January 25, 2001, 05:14

quote:

Originally posted by wheathin on 01-24-2001 03:32 PM
So test a game, ask your friends, read the online forums, don't buy the first week a game is out, and read reviews.

There were more than ten reviews of CTP2 on Apolyton. There was nothing about bugs inside, and almost all of them gave very high notes to the game (70-80% or even more). Won't you buy the game in such case?
Besides, what do you mean 'test a game'. There is no trial version and I think no more support means no trial version at all. :-(

ucel

**Grumbold** · January 25, 2001, 06:42

The reviews here and elsewhere were pretty positive in the first week and most of the bugs came to light later (no review mentions any bugs to my knowledge.) If I encounter bugs myself within the first week of playing I have no hesitation whatsoever in returning the faulty software to the store. That is certainly within my rights in the UK no matter what the store might think its return policy is. With CtP2 it took a bit too long, partly because they did announce a patch would be released(so I suppose, in a sense I got something approaching value for money if it took 20 hours play to become dissatisfied with a £30 game.)

**wheathin** · January 25, 2001, 11:38

ucel - you could 'test' it if there's a demo (there wasn't in this case), or by playing a friend's copy.

I think the one thing Martina is mistaken about is that Activision's ability to do this to consumers reflects on the stupidity of the consumer. Rather, it reflects on the fundamental imbalance in the computer games market where consumers have substantially-less-than-perfect information, and where software publishers, equipment makers, and retailers have effectively prevented any recourse for a disgruntled user. Standards for hardware integration (video cards, drivers, etc.) are flimsy things - is it the fault of the game designers or the hardware makers when the game runs on 85% of machines, but not on yours?

It's not like the software is "defective" - it just can't be designed to run on all machines. And, while the obvious solution would be for retailers to allow returns of software, retailers know that software is easy to copy - they are not about to risk having tons of opened boxes returned to them after consumers have bought the game and shared it with friends. Are computer games sold on consignment to retailers - if there's overstock or returns, who eats them? Allowing returns might only come out of the retailer's pocket, especially if all you have to do is say "this don't work, dude" and you get your money back.

**CapTVK** · January 25, 2001, 14:09

quote:

Originally posted by wheathin on 01-25-2001 10:38 AM
Are computer games sold on consignment to retailers - if there's overstock or returns, who eats them? Allowing returns might only come out of the retailer's pocket, especially if all you have to do is say "this don't work, dude" and you get your money back.

Wheathin,
Activision will take unsold overstock back from the retailers (at least for the large retailers or distributors). Check the Y10-K reports and the filings of Activision at the SEC for details.

So if you bought CTP2 at a large retail chain and returned within a certain period it will come out of Activision's pockets.

**BlueO** · January 25, 2001, 15:17

Welp, I thought I put in my 2 cents.

I keep hearing about ctp2 being broken, but there's only 2 things wrong with this game I can see. First, the diplomacy appears to be bugged... like trading for advances or cities, and nothing happen. Not a big deal for me fortunately, since I only play the game for the war aspect.

Secondly, the AI is lacking. Actually, the game AI itself seems well written, it just has one design flaw. The AI doesn't know how to mass troops and do a effective offensive. Otherwise, its quite good, but the whole fun of the game for me, is to have a nice big war against the AI. With the AI's lacking ability in doing an offensive strike, the whole game is just plain boring. Again, luckily for me. I found the Apolyton site, and eventually found a way to force the AI to mass troops and attack the player. So that solved that problem.

Actually, there's a third major bug in the game, the inability to load a saved mod game. Again fortunately, there's a workaround for that too.

So I guess I'm saying, CTP2 started out as the worst game I've ever played, in the end, it turned out to be the best, since it's the only civ type game I know that allows the player to do extensive modding. The only other game I still play today is Starcraft. Spent a lot of time playing Starship Trooper and Super defense maps on that. (for peole who don't know Starcraft, it also allowed extensive modding...but unlike CTP2, Starcraft have a really good and fun AI)

As for Activision dropping support, again I don't care since the game pretty much works all around. No games will ever be absolutly perfect or totally bug free. But ctp2 as is, is good enough...

Announcement

a STATEMENT OF ACTIVISION TO THE CIV COMMUNITY

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