I'm disgusted on the lack of intellect in CTP2 players

[OmniGod]

I don't mean to start a war, but I just don't understand why there are so many people out there who believe that every little "error" that you believe you have found should be fixed by activision. I agree that certain things, which directly affect the game (ex. the save game bug, or the patch not working on all computers) are something they should be held responsible to fix, asap. But as for the AI being too easy, or there not being enough sprites, or scenarios, or not being able to have more than 8 civs is something that is left to the players. If you don't like what is happening in the game at any given point, say you don't like that a phalanx can beat a tank (doesn't happen now, but just for arguements sake) then I think you should try to fix it to your liking. That's what the creation forum is for, come visit it. You'll see so many things that we didn't agree with, and are making changes so it suits us and a few others better. There's info how to do it yourself, accumulated by DarkKnight, mods by WesW and others, scenarios by Harlan and others, maps by me and others, utilites by Harlan, acitivision, Skorpion and many others. If you don't like something, the advantage to how Activision made this game is that you can change it to meet your own personal tastes. If you don't like how easy the game is on the hardest level then change that level to something more difficult (increase the AI science starts, the AI tactics, the AI diplomacy, the AI whatever). This game was designed to play have fun and improve... it's not stagnant. So if you haven't gotten the drift of this little letter, it's this "if you don't like it, fix it..." the people in creation are generally happy to help you, and maybe you've learned something that they've missed and can help their problems.... the game does need work, no question... but Civ III isn't out for a while yet, so let's make this game ours and when CTP3 is delivered to us, and after activision has checked out the forums and changes we've made... (you know they must... it's free work) then maybe we'll not have to change so much next time... do you want your two cents in the game, or do you just want to %&#*@ and complain??? I know where I stand....

Rich - the developer, the modifier... the improver


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited January 06, 2001).]</font>

[MrLeN]

Yes, well said. From a developers point of view you have covered many angles. You are intelligent. You have demonstrated patience, perseverance and general good character. From a gamers point of view, I'm sure that people like you are an asset. I believe that all constructive comments are needed whether they be pretty or not. What I don't belive in is contradiction. Especially contradiction that has no focus but to pull someone elses 'constructive' comments down. Lets here more constructive criticism, more constructive replies both opposing 'and' for CIV issues and less contradiction. Well done

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It's better to close your mouth and let everyone 'think' you're stupid, than open it and let everyone 'know' you are.

[ACOLKitty]

OK, then fix the AI. Make it kill me once.

[OmniGod]

Just once?

Rich

[colorme]

"But as for the AI being too easy .... is left to the players. "

That's asking for too much from players. We didn't buy the game to be activision's unpaid programmers.

"That's what the creation forum is for, come visit it."

My impression was that the creation forum was to create scenarios, not to fix the game.

"I'm disgusted on the lack of intellect in CTP2 players "
That's a little too snooty, I think . CTP2 players are the guys who plonked down $60 or whatever, and have spent countless hours debugging the game for activision.

[Alpha Wolf]

Both sides have valid points. There are too many bugs, and the AI was not tweaked very well. Luckily, I find tweaking half the fun. But I agree that activision, assuming their management isnt totally idiots, will be profiting from alot of hard work done by the mod'ers.

On the other side, too many people are complaining about things that are easily fixed or are unique to their style of play. The best part about CtP2 is that the files that control the game are simple text files. If people would take a few minutes to look at them they'd see that they can easily change things that they dont like. And as Omni stated, there are many that are happy to those that truly are interested in making the game better.

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History is written by the victor.

[jkadabomb]

Alright, here is my theory on why CTP2 is easy. I believe most people on this forum are hard core Civer's and want a lot of challenge. I believe Activision is trying to appeal to a more mainstream crowd rather then to the hardcore civers. If Activision made CTP2 a challenge for hardcore Civers then the game would nearly be impossible for the mainstream crowd to play and a lot of sales would be lost. Lets face it, in reality people who are truly hardcore to the Civilization series are not that common. In fact, I know lots of people who play CTP2 but all of them play in moderation and find the game already a challenge when they do play. Well in the end everything is done for money, and the mainstream crowd brings in more money then the hardcore crowd.

[OmniGod]

quote: Originally posted by colorme on 01-06-2001 09:01 PM "But as for the AI being too easy .... is left to the players. " That's asking for too much from players. We didn't buy the game to be activision's unpaid programmers.

If you bought the game to be entertained, then you have been to this point. Okay so the game is "easy" in your opinion now (is this due to you being superior at the game, you reading how the AI works or have you just honed your skills as a CTP player?) If it's because you've played 1000s of games, then maybe you should be making suggestions on how to improve it or create a mod of your own which aims at correcting the level of "ease". The general idea of my comments in this post have been that everyone seems to have complaints, but leaves the solutions up to activision to solve. I agree that there are certain complaints that are truely complaints and should fall on the desk of the creators. But just because you've learned how to beat the AI doesn't mean it's inferior than the previous CTP or Civ AI's it means you've either played long enough, or have read how the AI plays and plays according to that. A newbie would find this AI fairly challenging I would believe, but a seasoned veteran would think it's a push over. Thus in my mind it's those veterans who should be coming together to enhance the AI, make it unbeatable, possibly. I personally believe that no matter how hard the AI becomes, some people will be able to beat it. Can they make it infinitely hard? No.. can we adjust it to something more of our level... sure... that's the joy of Civ games... customizability (if that's how you spell it)...

quote: "That's what the creation forum is for, come visit it." My impression was that the creation forum was to create scenarios, not to fix the game.

That's part of what the creation forum does, the other part is create mods... the mods are used to improve the play of the game... which includes AI changes, unit changes, additional gov'ts, diplomacy etc. Scenarios is part of it, but the mods are more of what the creation forum does... and modifing is customizing.

quote: "I'm disgusted on the lack of intellect in CTP2 players " That's a little too snooty, I think . CTP2 players are the guys who plonked down $60 or whatever, and have spent countless hours debugging the game for activision.

Okay.. I agree intellect wasn't the word I was looking for, maybe something more along the lines of lack of vision. The game is meant to be a platform to start from... the What if scenario... the gave us the basic building blocks to customize, expand, and grow... but if we ask them and complain about the basics of the system what is gained... they change it and now there's a new base... did we gain anything... no.. just a general customization. Personally I like the freedom to change what I want, to how I want. If I believe the AI is weak... then I'll look into it and have the AI grow.... if I think thta battleships should be able to carry cruise missles... the change is made... it's that type of vision about the possibities of this game that make it great... if they said here and gave no ablility to change, then there's a real reason to complain, since nothing we can do can be done about it... then it's Activisions responsibity (such as PBEM or hotseat). That's what I meant by the thread title, it was not to say that the CTP2 players are stupid, but very closed about what possibilities activision has left for us. I say the game is perfect as released minus a few glitches, but the play of the game works, and almost everything can be edited. To me this game is exactly what I hoped for. Of course there is improvements to be made beyond what we as editors can do, but that's what CTP3 is for...

Rich

[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited January 06, 2001).]

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't think people should be slamed for saying the AI is easy. The programmer ****ed up here and that is the key. Saying, you should go fix it is frankly absurd and stupid. People didn't buy the game so they could immediatly change it. People except to have a good AI to fight them, and furthermore they think that Activision should have done it. It is not the people's job to make the AI harder, it is Activisions! Stop shifting the blame, and realize they messed up!

[David Murray]

Do you "programmers" all stick around and cover each others' backs? Like some little close-knit, protective family? The person who started this thread should be shot. Calling people "stupid" because they don't just go and alter the game themselves is the very epitome of programmer arrogance. No wonder we consumers moan and complain about these people. Their arrogance knows no bounds, and neither does their lust for cutting corners. Nuff said

[marcuspeddle]

quote: Originally posted by jkadabomb on 01-06-2001 09:44 PM Alright, here is my theory on why CTP2 is easy. I believe most people on this forum are hard core Civer's and want a lot of challenge. I know lots of people who play CTP2 but all of them play in moderation and find the game already a challenge when they do play.

I also think this is true. I played Civ2 for a couple of years and then SMAC one time (the graphics and music were depressing) and I really enjoy those kinds of games but I'm not that great at them. I get beaten by the AI on the hardest levels and I don't have empires of 60 or 70 cities (this is partly because I'm not very aggressive). Sometimes I wish the AI was a little more intelligent in its strategy but for more challenge I can increase barbarian activity or raise the difficulty level.

[Savant]

I think you are mistaken in some of your comments David. Everyone who has posted a message in this thread has done something in one way or another to improve the game in some form. Whether in helping to edit game files, produce units, maps, or mods, or bringing attention to the game's weaknesses. I think they should be applauded for their efforts - and you too, for adding to the debate.

I do think Rich (the originator of this thread) is also mistaken though in his stance on the playability of the game being something a customer should have responsibility for. Customers do not intend to have to download patches and edit game files to produce a reasonable simulation. Yet, because you are here David, it means you are computer literate enough to have an interest in tooling around with your game - as I do. So from another perspective, Rich is correct in directing his comments to those of us who come to this board and discuss the game intelligently. He would not be correct in generalizing that notion of "consumer responsibility" beyond us computer literate folks.

If think the cause of the furor over CTP2's poor AI is the fear it may be "unfixable" by the legions of CTP2 fans who visit Apolyton. You see, if the problem were poor unit icons, lousy maps, and a poor tech tree alone (or all of these even), then we could take solace in their being fixed by the ingenious people we encounter on these boards - and without naming them, you know who they are if you are a regular visitor. Those kinds of problems are no match for the CTP team at Apolyton. They tranformed a stymied CTP1 into a playable and enjoyable game. They could do the same for CTP2.

But, there is a problem. In this problem lies all the "angst" of the board members who post about the AI and it lies within me as well. That is, what if the AI is not fixable because we don't have a way of understanding how to tool around with it?

Look at the threads on this AI issue. You will find the inevitable dead-end threads that deal with editing the AI files. By dead-end I mean that a discussion begins where people identify a line or two to edit and then people shrug because they aren't sure what the line means. When they edit the line of code they aren't sure changes actually affect the game. This is like a thick black cloud. In contrast, the mods by Wes and others that change unit,improvement,advance settings and the like take immediate and apparent effect in the game. The AI changes...lead to worry because they don't seem to do anything.

If people lose confidence in the ability to redress the AI issue through mods of their own or by the talented folks here, the game will simply perish and erode what has become a strong, friendly, and supportive community. The AI issue is the heart of the matter that erodes confidence in the game.

I do hope we find a way to change the AI in some significant way. I have made a variety of the suggested AI changes to my game that were posted in other threads (in the creation section) and I see at best a nominal improvement.

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'Blood will run'

[MrLeN]

OmniGod, your opening sentence is where i 'first' fell off my chair..."If you bought the game to be entertained, then you have been to this point." <--- How long has the game been out? Can anyone tell me?


Also... "If it's because you've played 1000s of games, then maybe you should be making suggestions on how to improve it or create a mod of your own which aims at correcting the level of "ease" <--- If that's what YOU like to do, then go do it, don't let anyone else stop you, but that game was released for entertainment purposes in exchange for 'cash'.


And..."Personally I like the freedom to change what I want, to how I want. If I believe the AI is weak... then I'll look into it and have the AI grow.... if I think thta battleships should be able to carry cruise missles... the change is made..." <--- Well, can you fix the AI for us please?


And..."A newbie would find this AI fairly challenging I would believe, but a seasoned veteran would think it's a push over. Thus in my mind it's those veterans who should be coming together to enhance the AI, make it unbeatable, possibly. I personally believe that no matter how hard the AI becomes, some people will be able to beat it. Can they make it infinitely hard? No.."<--- That was the idea behind DIFFICULTYYYYYY LEVEEEEEEELS


And..."That's what I meant by the thread title, it was not to say that the CTP2 players are stupid, but very closed about what possibilities activision has left for us."<---That's not what you said !
You know what you are? You are a minority. You are one of a few that have an understanding of how the game works and enjoy fixing its bugs and like to fiddle with its workings. If that's what you want to do, then why is it that you expect everyone else to adopt the same attitude? Most people are regular joe's that baught the game, but are dissapointed that the AI is kinda lame, and it IS true. I haven't seen or heard many comments at all about any other problems, exept for the one or two trippers sooking about the graphics, but it's not a graphically orientated game, it's a strategy so that doesn't worry the vast majority, including myself. I think it's not too bad anyway. All I can see is people putting forward their gripe about the intelligence, and your comment about not being able to make the game mentally demading for all players is way out! The fact is that it HAS and it CAN, but it doesn't! So what's the problem? What's with the Epic? How did it get to you insulting not just peoples intellect but contradicting yourself by insisting the become programmers? how did it all get to that? What is your problem? Are you too good for everyone?
My point is, there is no point offering bandaid solutions. Especially solutions that no one give a flying rats a** about! All the majority want to do is unwrap the box and get something more advanced than the previous version. The AI is not only worse that the previous version but it has nothing on the CIV I played on my amiga. I WILL remind you, i am talking about the AI intelligence, so don't reply trying to tell me I'm mad coz i'm bagging the game. I love the game, the graphics is cool (enough) I love the borders, and I love the diplomacy (well I would if it got used) lets just say I love the concept behind the diplomacy.
Anyway, just quit being Mr I'm so smart and look how intelligent I am, and just let the consumers have their say, and what better place than the most popular CIV forum on the net? huh?


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It's better to close your mouth and let everyone 'think' you're stupid, than open it and let everyone 'know' you are.

[MrFun]

Omni - the reason why some are complaining so much is because some of their questions regardng modifications are not being answered by ones who are more knowledgable, such as Locustus, Harlan, Wes, or yourself.

For instance, regarding SLIC - what events or factors would require knowledge and maniuplation of SLIC? I have hardly ANY knowledge in computer programming and have only modified the text files.

So what's the use of taking up modification projects if some of their posted questions are not being answered?

I tried searching for previous posts for my answers, but none show up if the subject was covered at all.

[OmniGod]

In response to most of the above, I think the problem now is that no one is really tackling the problem with the AI. With that said, I'd like to see if there are a few people who will help/aid or constructively comment on fixing the AI. I've seen all these threads about how it doesn't attack in grooves, or it doesn't learn fast enough, or ... I will start a new thread in the creation forum about fixing the AI. If you have a constructive complaint (something that can realistically be fixed) I invite you to post it and we'll see what we can do about it... there are possibilities and since I started this, I think that I'm not a bad person to go after the solution. I will say that I'm not a programmer, I'm just an average optometry major and that I'm no different than everyone else in the forum. So if this takes me a month to solve to 1/2 the populations satisfaction then great....

Rich