CTP way too America-centric

[Atahualpa]

quote: Originally posted by Stratesford on 10-23-2000 05:37 AM They should also put some latin american wonders too. like in anncient times the "el Castillo" or "tikal". in the R. they should put "teotihuacan" (site of the biggest pyramid in the world), for modern times they should put something like "Rio d' janeiro" that giives caravns more money(turists) or cancun (fyi: mexico is the country with more turists/population, 2nd place is korea, why korea?)

IIRC in CtP1 there was Chichen Itza.

Ata

[KhanMan]

quote: Originally posted by Tilemacho on 10-23-2000 09:06 AM Well I think you need some more history lessons before you can say things like that... It's a huge difference to have Democracy (with all the problems someone could adress) in a time where everyone else has Monarchy and Tyranny, and have a Democracy that functions better in a time that many others try the same system.....

Actually, I am well versed in world history. You, as a Greek, probably have read the history of Thucydides-if you have, it shows how badly the Athenians treated Alcibiades. Also, the whims of public opinion were well documented in the disaterous Sicilian campaign.

The use of the ostrakan to banish anyone people didn't like isn't much like modern democracy, where people aren't banished or killed after they lose office.

Roman democracy was pleasing the crowds, and constant warfare between demagogues, is this real democracy?

Plus, American democracy was closer to a Republic in the early years, up to the Civil War.

MHO, that is.

"...and then the general went to Artemisium to pray..."
-closing lines of Thucydides' History

[MarkG]

i'm no history expert but....

quote: Originally posted by KhanMan on 10-23-2000 06:36 AM Are you counting the Republics of Athens and early Rome as democracies? They had no set protections of individual rights

hmmmmm... the right (of an Athenian) to vote? to be equal against the law? to have property?

quote: , and, of course, voting was restricted to a select few.

yeah, but well, there was never a case were people did vote
and half the adult population of the city is not a "few"...

quote: Originally posted by KhanMan on 10-24-2000 05:06 AM The use of the ostrakan to banish anyone people didn't like isn't much like modern democracy, where people aren't banished or killed after they lose office

actually, the idea was to stop anyone who got too much power. perhaps it wasnt always executed perfectly, but then again, which idea ever did?

[rhodie]

This is rapidly deterioratinto a we built this first conflagration. I think that we should return to teh point of the post. I have no problem with an Anglo-American hegemony on modern wonders, but do think that representation of certain acheivements out of the western hemisphere should be addressed. I really liked the Bullet Train idea.

Other wonder ideas, some dragged in from Civ II:-

Marco Polo's Journey
Great Zimbabwe (mysterious city in Southern Africa)
King Solomon's Mines
Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem

Truth is I know some of whats in the game as new wonders - very nice...

[WesW]

Here are the Wonders we added for the Med mod. I have seen a number of these in the posts here.
The new Opera House inprovement I added to the game has the Sydney opera house as its symbol.
Some of the wonders were chosen more for their effect on the game and the time period in which they appeared rather than the merits of the actual item.

ICON_WONDER_TEMPLE_OF_SOLOMON
ICON_WONDER_GREAT_LIBRARY (of Alexandria, Egypt)
ICON_WONDER_ROYAL_SHAKESPEARE_CO
ICON_WONDER_THE_PRINCE (Machiavelli's book)
ICON_WONDER_KREMLIN
ICON_WONDER_COHORT
ICON_WONDER_COLOSSUS (of Rhodes)
ICON_WONDER_PLATOS_ACADEMY
ICON_WONDER_LIGHTHOUSE (of Alexandria, Egypt)
ICON_WONDER_TAJ_MAHAL
ICON_WONDER_INQUISITION
ICON_WONDER_CRUSADES
ICON_WONDER_MEZQUITA (a mosque and university in Spain)
ICON_WONDER_ST_PETERS_BASILICA
ICON_WONDER_BEETHOVENS_6TH_SYMPHONY
ICON_WONDER_US_CONSTITUTION
ICON_WONDER_STATUE_OF_LIBERTY
ICON_WONDER_NEWTONS_PRINCIPIA
ICON_WONDER_BOLSHOI_THEATRE
ICON_WONDER_LE_CODE_NAPOLEON
ICON_WONDER_MAOS_LITTLE_RED_BOOK
ICON_WONDER_TRANS_ATLANTIC_CABLE
ICON_WONDER_PANAMA_CANAL
ICON_WONDER_ORIGIN_OF_SPECIES
ICON_WONDER_FORDS_ASSEMBLY_PLANT
ICON_WONDER_EQUAL_RIGHTS_MOVEMENT
ICON_WONDER_GANDHIS_SATYAGRAHA
ICON_WONDER_MASTER_RACE
ICON_WONDER_DISNEY_WORLD
ICON_WONDER_UNITED_NATIONS
ICON_WONDER_APOLLO_PROGRAM
ICON_WONDER_PENTAGON
ICON_WONDER_DOMINIQUES_SOLUTION
ICON_WONDER_E_COMMERCE
ICON_WONDER_TISSUE_REGENERATION
ICON_WONDER_DNA_DATING
ICON_WONDER_NEW_WORLD_ORDER
ICON_WONDER_THE_BORG
ICON_WONDER_TELEPORTATION
ICON_WONDER_PATOLA_PALACE
ICON_WONDER_PASTEUR_INSTITUTE

[Big Dave]

If you're going to count the US Constitution as a Wonder (and I'm not saying you shouldn't) you really ought to have the Magna Carta as a prerequisite. It wouldn't have to be discovered by the same civ (see historical example above), but somebody should have discovered it before the Constition is researched.

Well, now that I've deleted my little rant on success-bashing, I'll agree that CTP was written in the U.S. and with a great lack of historical research. Best of luck educating Activision.

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Big Dave

My karma ran over my dogma.
[This message has been edited by Big Dave (edited October 24, 2000).]

[KhanMan]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of the Anglo-Americano-Centric Wonders? Take a look at the original list of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and you'll see that almost all were in Greece, Egypt, or colonies of the two.

That said, maybe if we throw all the wonders (like the Masoleum of Miletus) back in, we'll get a list that's sufficiently Anglo-American-Egyptian-Greek-centric to please everyone...

...er, wait, where does that leave the Aussies and the Canadians?

"We need more Antartica-Centric Wonders!"
-KhanMan

[Stratesford]

Latin American wonders is what we need, like the mayan calander and the Aztec worrior code and $hit like that.

[red_jon]

The democracy thing was that the great library explanation mentions nothing about where democracy originated, only about US rights to vote.

Oh, and don't forget, even though greece did not allow everyone to vote, DID THE AMERICANS BEFORE 1950?

Freedom and equality has evolved over time, it was not invented all at once, so perhaps in a future game, you should be able to grant rights graually?


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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by KhanMan on 10-25-2000 06:29 AM Am I the only one who sees the irony of the Anglo-Americano-Centric Wonders? Take a look at the original list of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and you'll see that almost all were in Greece, Egypt, or colonies of the two.

yeah, well, cause that's what the phrase "ancient world" refers to...

[Old Bear]

Perhaps we should limit wonders to those that have a profound effect/affect on civilization(s) in general.
Invention of wheel, coinage, bronze(not a natural substance), forging of iron, Great Wall of China, Magna Carta, UN, Calendar(a development in severalcivilizations),
development of compass etc. See my drift. So called great wonders merely glorify their particular civilization. In CIV I & II wonders can affect the game in the early stages, in CTP the effects are not that earth shaking. Heck, if they are that important to your
chauvinistic views, then create your own list.
And if you look at CTP 1 you should realize that CTP2 probably won't be any more historically correct than it's predecessors.

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The secret to life is-
there isn't any.

[Changmai Beagle]

In case anyone is looking for Canuck-centric wonders, we could throw in insulin, the telephone, maybe radio (that could be sort of an Italian-American-Canadian wonder), and hockey (every new army would start out as veteran fighters ;-)

From Asia one could include the Buddha, Bollywood (?), the Three Rivers Dam, the jungle temples in Cambodia (sorry I've forgotten the name), etc.

[MadWoodster]

Don't forget folks we also have feats of wonder as well now (minor wonders)

[JamesJKirk]

If by democracy you mean equal sufferage for all men and women regardless of color, and what not, the US was first at that de jure, while maybe not de facto. You can't consider Athens a democracy really, it was just a bunch of rich white guys sitting around discussing what to do, what's even more necessary than universal sufferage for democracy in modern thinking is unversal civil liberties and equality before the law. maybe someday there WILL be a democracy somewhere then, eh? Oh, and maybe the Statue of Liberty was used so that it would apply to the US and the French? and Chinese dissidents?

Also, Big Dave, Brits are working with us on intelligence gathering so they can spy on our citizens, we can spy on them, and then we can share info without breaking US law, isn't that great? UKUSA or Echelon. Oh, and the historical relevence of the Magna Carta is vastly overstated, it just mean that they king had to work with the aristocracy a bit more to exploit the masses, and while the US constitution is good, I'd say the Dec of Independence has had more of an impact on the world. (Even Ho Chi Minh used it as a guide).

About space stations, I think Apollo represented the technology to get stuff that high into space that worked, it's like a nationalistic achievement and it shows you have technology for advanced satellites too. Uh, and we had Skylab too. and we're building most of the ISS

Siberian Hampster- the US invented the maglav technology used on the Japanese (and German) bullet trains, it's just we didn't use it because that would make the Auto companies that run our government lose money.
Also, the TGV uses regular train technology it's just really fast for one (that's why it's called Train Grande-Vitesse, or Train Big-Fast). Japanese trains use magnetic levitation
Bartemans- I like the idea of the ICJ as a wonder,

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by JamesJKirk on 10-26-2000 11:57 AM You can't consider Athens a democracy really, it was just a bunch of rich white guys sitting around discussing what to do, what's even more necessary than universal sufferage for democracy in modern thinking is unversal civil liberties and equality before the law.

*trying to respond in a logical manner*
rights and liberties and equality before law existed in Athens, for rich and pour
just to whites of course, but because there weren't any black athenians, not for other reasons