Turn Chat Improvements!

[Turambar]

Perhaps using maps / diagrams etc when planning unit movement would help. Here's something I made earlier for a thread I'll probably start tommorrow on where to explore / which unit to defend our city etc.

Similar things could be done before the chat to illustrate orders / plan invasions:

(I like messing about with paint )

[Locutus]

Tamerlin,
With your proposal Pedrunn might as well play the game on his own and report significant events in the forum, after which we discuss them properly and decide what to do. Once decided, Pedrunn can play on again on his own.

I think turn chats are fun, useful and give the people more power. A little bit more of a hands-on approach for the people in the chat would be desirable, without slowing the game as much as we presently do. So basically we're looking for something that keeps the middle between your proposal and the current situation.

mapfi,
Yes, for diplomacy and goodie huts it shouldn't make a difference as they're no real random factor involved. Combat could be different though, don't know how that would work out... And then of course there SLIC, as you said...

Turambar:

[HuangShang]

Turambar's proposal get a when ministers/cits are sure they'll be absent

[Maquiladora]

I would agree with Turambar's diagram, preferably the southern warrior moving East first, keep it close to our city just in case but to get a more informed view around our city. The northern warrior moving west around the Austrian border.

[Pedrunn]

Turambar,
1) I like the idea of someone posting the screenshots for me. That actually the part that makes my job more difficult.

2) Unfortunetly we have currently exploring the terrain so we need to discuss every move to get the best path. I dont think we should implement this at all. Although in cases like the one pointed by Tamerlin diagram it works nicely. Even the diagram is not needed. Just tell me. Return the hoplite to home. And i will do it. But in case of explorer units thats impossible.

3) Last chat IW was missing and i chose Locutus to be in his place. It works quite well. That wont give any speed up.


Locutus.
A) & B) See response to 2). This is not good enough to be implemented.

C) Same as 3) no change at all.

D) This idea is terrific and we should implement it as you can see in 1).

E) It is impossible to predict every future action specially for the explorer units.


BTW, slic, huts, diplomatic events and other events do not change if we get two people working at the same time. It just look pre-defined in the begginning of the game. Even the function: Random(); always give the same result.
I dont know about battles though.
So D) and 1) can implemented.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Locutus
D) Some other player (preferably (but not necessarily) a Judge)

I think it's not so important that the screenshot-poster be a judge as have a fast internet connection - that will surely be the most significant delaying factor in doing such posts. Though being a judge would be good too.

[Tamerlin]

Thanks for the comments Pedrunn but the diagram idea is from Turambar and D point has bot been raised by me.

As I wrote it before, the second player can emulate the President's game using the cheat menue if there are some differences. Of course, the second player must be someone used to the cheat menue and able to work rather fast with it. This should not be a problem as the flow of the game is regularly interrupted by the chats needed to define the course of the game.

[Locutus]

2) Unfortunetly we have currently exploring the terrain so we need to discuss every move to get the best path. I dont think we should implement this at all. Although in cases like the one pointed by Tamerlin diagram it works nicely. Even the diagram is not needed. Just tell me. Return the hoplite to home. And i will do it. But in case of explorer units thats impossible.

It is IMO imperative that we DO implement this. We're not talking about walking 3 turns with 1 unit, we're talking about 1 turn with 3 units. As it is, the situation is like this:

Cit1: We should move Warrior 1 north, Hoplite easter and Warrior 2 south
MoD: I agree with Cit1.
Ped: [color=red]What should be do with the northern Warrior?[/color]
Cit1: north
(silence)
Ped: [color=red]Where should the northern warrior go?[/color]
MoD: north, like Cit1 said
(long silence)
Cit1: P, did you move the units?
Ped: [color=red]What should we do with the Hoplite?[/color]
Cit1: East :rolleyes:
MoD: east
Ped: [color=red]you sure you want to go east?[/color]
Cit2: actually, I think we should go south...
...
(long discussion and 10 minutes later)
...
Ped: [color=red]so, where should the Hoplite go?[/color]
MoD: east, and the other Warrior south
(silence)
Cit1: did you move the units yet?
Cit2: yeah, this is going rather slow
Ped: [color=red]okay, I posted a screenshot of the map[/color]
Cit1: who asked for a screenshot?
Ped: [color=red]so, what should we do with the warrior in the south?[/color]
Cit1: aaarrrgghh...
MoD: south
(long silence)
Ped: [color=red]units moved, a new screen is in the thread. shall I end the turn now or offer them a proposal first?[/color]
...
etc

Well, you get the idea (we did 3 chats like this so you ought to ). This takes us over half an hour, while we could also do it like this:

Cit1: We should move Warrior 1 north, Hoplite easter and Warrior 2 south
Cit2: shouldn't we go south with the Hoplite?
Cit3: no, not yet, first go a littel further east, then south
Cit1: Agreed
Cit2: Agreed
MoD: ORDER: N Warrior north, Hoplite east, S Warrior south
Ped: [color=red]orders received[/color]
Cit2: so, what about next turn, should we give the Austrians any gold
...
(discussion ensues)
...
MoDST: ORDER: offer Austrians 100 Gold in exchange for map
Ped: [color=red]okay, I moved the units, see thread for new map. will offer 100 gold for map now.[/color]

Which wouldn't have to take more than 10 minutes (probably less) and doesn't change anything about decision making. We would still decide over every little detail only we'd do it a heck of a lot faster. We only need info on what the surroundings of a unit look like if we can actually move them, so supplying this info as soon as a unit just finished movement is not useful: it will be a while before we can move again, so do some other stuff first and report back with *all* new info later.

Right now we can still do 5 turns a chat, but if we continue with this pace, moving around when we have a few dozen units is gonna be a hell and we'd need 2 or 3 chats to move 1 turn...

[Locutus]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
I think it's not so important that the screenshot-poster be a judge as have a fast internet connection - that will surely be the most significant delaying factor in doing such posts. Though being a judge would be good too.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Pedrunn
It is impossible to predict every future action specially for the explorer units.

Agreed, but as it is, we don't even bother to try...
Some generic guidelines should be set up in advance, and preferably polled too (Maq told us to look south for city sites but I would have preferred to stay closer to the city for defense, there was hardly room for discussing this during the chat).

[Maquiladora]

I said something like, move the warrior south but keep it close to our city. I usually have 3 garrisoned in SAP, then move 2 out with the settler when its done and begin building units again. The hoplite will make it before any barbs get there so we can keep the southern warrior a little close but doesnt need to be garrisoned yet.

[Pedrunn]

Locutus, I cant find this conversation in the chat log
You made that up?

[Locutus]

It's not *exactly* what happened in a real chat but it's along the same lines, mainly based on my memories of yesterday's chat (but the first 2 chats were little different)...

[Pedrunn]

I see!

Although the long silence because is true in order to prepare the screeshots - aiming the frame to get a good shot, alt-tab to photoshop (who uses it know it takes a while), making it fit in a 600 width jpg (max permitted in attachements) and still be undrestadable, save in the desktop, load "post reply button" (Apolyton takes an eternity we all know), look for the picture in the Desktop and press the submit post button - really takes a while! Not to mention when something goes wrong like image too big or you already posted 30 seconds before, etc...

But if you remember ok the question "Ped: you sure you want to go east?"

That made a 10 minutes chat (we both know it wasnt that much) was because i was against the move of the hoplite to go east. I thought he had to go north because i thought he could reach the hut first than the warrior. We end up moving east because i realize they bothe reached the hut at the same time.

BTW, make up lines like "Cit1: aaarrrgghh..." is difamation by the way.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
That made a 10 minutes chat (we both know it wasnt that much) was because i was against the move of the hoplite to go east. I thought he had to go north because i thought he could reach the hut first than the warrior. We end up moving east because i realize they bothe reached the hut at the same time.

Well, if you don't agree, then discussion is good, you too should have a chance to give feedback. But if we had had a decent chance to discuss things up front, odds are the discussion would have been shorter. Plus it decreases the chance that a minister makes a questionable decision in the first place.

And made up lines like "Cit1: aaarrrgghh..." is difamation by the way.

What is it with you and defamation? People have repeated expressed their frustration with the snail pace at which the chats move forward, this was just an example of that...

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Locutus
What is it with you and defamation? People have repeated expressed their frustration with the snail pace at which the chats move forward, this was just an example of that...

Becuase everybody says the game is slow and i am slow when seeing the progress of the game. But you will never see a line like "you are taking too long on this issue" or "aaarrrgghh..." or "lets just move now, cant wait more". They never complaint about a single event taking long. But do complain the game pace as a whole.
So your comment is not in accordance with reality therefore difamation.

then discussion is good, you too should have a chance to give feedback.

Exacly.
I wonder if the citizens who complain realize that the game is taking long because the discussions are taking too long. I just ask "where to move the unit?" or "Any new proposals" and await for the ministers feedback. So if the pace of the game is slow is because of the ministers and the citizens.
I just think the orders should be done separetly and not altogether (specially in case of explorers move in which a previous plan cant be made). i am just afraid that two different discussions at the same time can mess up the chat.

If i am to blaim about something is the time to post screenshot and the info for our situation. Probably next chat wont have this problem since i will try to find someone to do it for me.