Cradle 1.2

[Shadow]

Currently playing Cradle 1.3, 11Civs, and about medium everything else, and Impossible setting...

And I'm getting my @rse kicked!!!

I've tried everything I can think of! I'm on the bottom of the graph for everything except military, and then I'm second last. The problem there is that the last place civ has MUCH more advanced units. Not sure if that's factored into the graph or not.

I've got 12 stacks from 3 different civs sitting around most of my cities, and unless I give them something nearly every turn they'll pick a city off. There's just nothing I can do about it...

It's great!!! I'm losing!

I've lost about a third of my cities, although have been able to send nomads off to the nooks and crannies around the globe to start elsewhere. Relying on stealth attacks heavily, as nothing else is effective.

Oh ,I'd like to see the AIs making Peace Treaties, Alliances, Pacts, etc... but not a huge issue at this point as I'm drowning as it is.

Actually, the Barbs have taken about 6 cities (of the map I can see), and are starting to send their own nomads out to settle. Pity they don't get a look in on the graph. Wonder if they're ever gunna build Wonders...

Anyway, even though I'm struggling just to stay alive, let alone thrive, I'm having the best game of all time...!

Cradle Rocks!

Cheers,
Shadow.

[player1]

Originally posted by Boney
How about AI retreating sometime too? or disabling retreat for humans if AI cannot. (I cannot resist hitting that button sometimes)

disabling retreat?

There is one thread, several months old, called Battleveiw fix.
Find it, there is one alternate version (of fix) wich doesn't have retreat button.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Boney
If cradle and crusade could somehow join together another interesting hybrid would have been created. Is there any possibility of this happening?

I actually seriously considered doing this, worked out many of the details too (well, sort of, it was really a Crusade sequel with the best of Cradle ripped and a whole bunch of stuff added). But then I give it some good thought and realized that working out the AI and stuff is going to cost WAY more time than I can spare and that I would have to spend lots of time to continue to improve it once the initial version is done (meaning that I'd have little to no time left for SLIC and posting on 'Poly)...

BTW, haven't had the time to play the latest Cradle yet, I hope I will soon but I fear the worst...

[C0ckney]

This might sound like a silly question but how do you increase the number of playable civs?

[C0ckney]

NM, found out myself

[SteveMcI]

Just grabbed Cradle 1.2 the other day.
Have been enjoying "wasting" time immensely. Thanks to all who've contributed to it!

Unfortunately I have noticed a few problems:
* "Apples" is misspelt in the trade list
* MenAtArms and Pikemen are upgraded @ flintlock to Arquebusier, rather than at Gunpowder
* Chariots are allegedly capable of creating slaves from combat. They don't do so.
* Lots of missing info from the Library: eg Settlers vs Nomads: apart from being more expensive what's the deal? Similary Merchant Traders- produce 2 trade units vs one for caravans, but this isn't mentioned.

Have found a few problems with the "updater.slc" file. I only started looking around inside slic files yesterday, so upfront apologies if I get confused. :-)
* enadv[5], has entries indexed at 4, not 5
* Logic Bug (repeated several times); Have a situation with 12 units at a location. The logic flow is to 1st create a new unit, then delete the old. Unf, with 12 units, the 1st creation fails and you end up losing a lot of units in full stacks. Ouch.
I've tried to see if I can fix this one, but near as I can tell, variables seem to be pointers, rather than "absolute" values, hence the DeleteUnit event blows away the pointer values, and you can't get the original location anymore. Sigh.
* One frustration I've found, is that older units that were unable to be upgraded due to lack of funds will never get upgraded at all. I've since (very roughly) modified the file to get older units included again. But only some - ie the ones I'm actively using in my current game ;-)



Again, thanks for a great mod!



- Steve

[Peter Triggs]

Hi, Steve

* MenAtArms and Pikemen are upgraded @ flintlock to Arquebusier, rather than at Gunpowder

Assuming that it's not an oversight and that Hexagonian meant to do it like this, I rather liked this way of doing it. It gives you double your psychological bucks in this case. First you've got the kick out of getting gunpowder, which lets you build Arquebusiers, but then you've got to keep going to get flintlocks so that you can upgrade all your old units with new arms.

* enadv[5], has entries indexed at 4, not 5

Evidently a typo. This might explain the strange messages "We have 0 units ..." that someone reported.

* One frustration I've found, is that older units that were unable to be upgraded due to lack of funds will never get upgraded at all. I've since (very roughly) modified the file to get older units included again. But only some - ie the ones I'm actively using in my current game ;-)

When I wrote this I was worried that it would give the Human too much of an advantage if he could build old units but use his generally huge gold surplus to freely update them. With hindsight this wouldn't be a problem provided that whoever uses this code adjusts the default text files so that whenever an enabling advance is discovered the old unit is no longer buildable.

* Logic Bug (repeated several times); Have a situation with 12 units at a location. The logic flow is to 1st create a new unit, then delete the old. Unf, with 12 units, the 1st creation fails and you end up losing a lot of units in full stacks. Ouch.
I've tried to see if I can fix this one, but near as I can tell, variables seem to be pointers, rather than "absolute" values, hence the DeleteUnit event blows away the pointer values, and you can't get the original location anymore.

Thanks for spotting this. Duh, of course if you've got twelve units at a location I shouldn't have tried to add a new one there first. Here's the problematic lines:

    for(k=0 ; k < NUM_OBS_UNITS; k=k+1) {
	    CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[i],OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k].location,0);
	    Event:  DisbandUnit(OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k]);
    }

    CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[0].location,0);
    Event:  DisbandUnit(OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[0]);	

    for(k=0 ; k < NUM_OBS_UNITS; k=k+1){
	    CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k].location,0);
	    Event:  DisbandUnit(OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k]);
    }

I believe there's some new SLICers on the scene. There's a really straightforward solution to this (add at most two lines of code in each case) which I'll post tonight or tomorrow unless someone gets it first.

Peter

[SteveMcI]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the fast reply.

As it transpires, I found and applied a fix about 15 mins after hanging up the modem. ie Had downloaded and read the SLIC man pages. RTFM, who'd have thought that would ever help.... ;-)

It helps knowing that there is a location_t type, in addition to the unit_t type.


Also, re your attached code: at risk of "telling grandma how to suck eggs", don't forget the loop in the AI code as well.

Assuming that it's not an oversight and that Hexagonian meant to do it like this, I rather liked this way of doing it. It gives you double your psychological bucks in this case. First you've got the kick out of getting gunpowder, which lets you build Arquebusiers, but then you've got to keep going to get flintlocks so that you can upgrade all your old units with new arms.

Interesting thought - I must confess that hadn't occoured to me.
I suspect it may have been an oversight, as Arquebusiers are upgraded to Infantry @ railroad - in my current game this happened b4 I had researched Flintlock (to get Inf). ie Getting units before I should have. No biggie.

When I wrote this I was worried that it would give the Human too much of an advantage if he could build old units but use his generally huge gold surplus to freely update them. With hindsight this wouldn't be a problem provided that whoever uses this code adjusts the default text files so that whenever an enabling advance is discovered the old unit is no longer buildable.

Fair enough. Tho giving the AI the advantage in upgrades by AI players not having to pay for them, is a good balance IMHO.


I'm finding, in my current game, that having to delay researching Infrantry units, simply so I can afford to upgrade all my upgradable units is a very interesting consequence. And certainly puts a fascinating burden on the human player.

Thanks for spotting this. Duh, of course if you've got twelve units at a location I shouldn't have tried to add a new one there first.

I think that's the first time I've ever been actually thanked for finding a bug in someone else's code. ;-)


- Steve


For those that care, this is my quick and dirty fix to the file "CRA_updater.slc" as distributed with Cradle Mod1.2 (CRA_updater.slc file date 15/10/01):

38a39,40
> location_t tmpLocation;
> 
278c326
< 		             CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[i],OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k].location,0);
---
> 		  	     tmpLocation = OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k].location;
279a328
> 		             CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[i],tmpLocation,0);
365a415
> location_t UnitLocation;
380c430
< 	 CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[0].location,0);
---
> 	 UnitLocation = OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[0].location;
381a432
> 	 CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],UnitLocation,0);
414a466,468
> 	 unit_t tmpUnit2;
> 	 location_t UnitLocation;
> 	 
416c470
< 	      CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k].location,0);
---
> 	      UnitLocation = OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[k].location;
417a472
> 	      CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],UnitLocation,0);
443c498
< 
---
> location_t UnitLocation;
456,457c511
<     
<          CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[OBS_UNIT_INDEX].location,0);
---
>          UnitLocation = OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[OBS_UNIT_INDEX].location;
458a513
>          CreateUnit(player[0],NEW_UNIT_TYPE[UPDATE_TYPES_ARRAY[UPDATE_TYPES_INDEX]],UnitLocation,0);

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by SteveMcI
Just grabbed Cradle 1.2 the other day.
Have been enjoying "wasting" time immensely. Thanks to all who've contributed to it!

Unfortunately I have noticed a few problems:
* "Apples" is misspelt in the trade list
* MenAtArms and Pikemen are upgraded @ flintlock to Arquebusier, rather than at Gunpowder
* Chariots are allegedly capable of creating slaves from combat. They don't do so.
* Lots of missing info from the Library: eg Settlers vs Nomads: apart from being more expensive what's the deal? Similary Merchant Traders- produce 2 trade units vs one for caravans, but this isn't mentioned.

- Steve

1. Martin, is that the German spelling of Apples? There should be an entry in CRA_gl_str.txt that can be easily fixed, as that file contains all of the text info that show up onscreen.

2. This is intentional - more from the standpoint of giving Pikemen and Men-at-Arms a slightly longer shelf life in the game (for instance, they don't upgrade to Arquebusiers at Gunpowder). From a historical standpoint, the earliest guns were somewhat unreliable in battle, so the switch to firearms took a long time to occur.

Still, if you want, you can change the Unit Updater SLIC file to upgrade those units at Flintlock and remove the code that has them upgrading at Railroad.

Thanks for catching the inconsisency in the Tech Tree. (Bypassing Flintlock by going to Railroad to get upgraded Infantry. Still, you would need to research Flintlock to build news ones.) I will have to change the enable advance for Railroad.

3. I need to fix the Great Library entry, as earlier incantations of Cradle allowed for Chariots to enslave. This feature has been removed in the current version.

4. The reason why the difference in cost between Nomad/Settler was to make it more expensive to build a new city as you get later in the game - at that point, your cities can get large and it becomes easy to have a large city crank out settlers quickly.

I had picked up the GL entries for the Merchant Traders/Caravans, so what Activision provided is basically what is there. (edited to reflect what they can do), as there is still a later game trader unit. (Freight Transport)

By the look of things, Peter is on the Updater SLIC issues.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by hexagonian
1. Martin, is that the German spelling of Apples? There should be an entry in CRA_gl_str.txt that can be easily fixed, as that file contains all of the text info that show up onscreen.

Actaul if I would pronounce it like in English than I would spell it like: Äppel. BTW the Berlian word for apples. And if you learn German than you have to learn this word. Apfel in singular and Äpfel in plural.

Yeah it was a lot of work to make the GoodMod Great Library. And translating the History entries from Nordicus' mod into German, actual a real pain, if you want to tarnslate language from a dictionary.

Without a CTP2 textfile editor you have to put a lot of work into it and than you will forget one or two spelling mistakes. Thanks for pointing that out. But that is actual a minor mispelling last time I mispelled crab fortunatly only in the readme.

-Martin

[Dale]

So........... since I've been outa the loop for a while, what's included in Cradle now? What's the "features list".

After being disappointed by Civ3, I might just make a return to CTP2.

Dale

[Pedrunn]

Welcome Back (i hope) Dale we all missed you.

[hexagonian]

Another disillusioned person comes back to the fold...

Welcome back Dale. What were your impressions of civ3? What were its weaknesses and strengths - at least in your opinion?

Anyhow, Peter is currently doing a rewrite of the Diplomacy SLIC files - he may be using what you have done in DiploMod as his base. Cradle is waiting for that file at the moment.

There seems to be some interest in updating the ApolytonPack - mainly from the standpoint of using some of the newer SLIC files. I would recommend the following, because the only thing required is the code (adapted to the Pack setup though).

UnitUpdater - Peter
Disaster - Immortal Wombat
AI PW Boost - player1
AI Tile Improvement Boost - Martin

All of these code help out the AI in some way.

GoodMod is a great code too, but it requires a lot of graphic files - I know that you wanted to limit the Apolyton Pack to the basic game though.

Ben
Did you ever get the Hurricane SLIC file working? I'd like to add it to Cradle. Send it to me if it is good to go (along with any needed graphic files)

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Ben
Did you ever get the Hurricane SLIC file working? I'd like to add it to Cradle. Send it to me if it is good to go (along with any needed graphic files)

The sprite needs some work IMO, and I can't get the units to move randomly, they'll move to attack stray units as barbarians will. They don't attack cities. It depends what you want from it really. I think it would be possible to pillage where they walk also.

[hexagonian]

Do you have a screenshot of the sprite - if it is a converted tga file, I can create something on my end in Photoshop and then you can make a sprite out of it. (if I knew the file specs that you need)

I guess I was looking for something that will work as a visual for a disaster onscreen - something that you can track for 5-10 turns that would hit a city and destroy pop/improvements, as well as pillage improvements in its path. (I'm not so concerned about destroying units - that is what the barbs do now)

Can you use the Siege setting to make it attack a city? You could make it a very weak attack so it does not have a chance of taking the city, but if it attacks a city, it automatically destroys 1/3 of the buildings.

Of course it would be destroyed when it hits a city - this is not necessarily a bad thing either, as the main purpose for it is to cause some destruction and then dissipate.

The general term can also cover tornadoes, so that these types of storms can also occur inland. (Maybe use the general term windstorm)