Tentative Project - Part Three

[TheLimey]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-26-2000 02:45 PM what i have noticed is that generally the ai is not very aggresive. there is a question though: if you never provoke a big ai and often give him "presents", should he ignore all that and start a war against you? another question is: should each ai act as if it against everyone else(including the other ai's), or should all ai's be against you "underneath"? if the human wants a more challenging he just has to stop "cheating" through ics

In answer to the first point, I believe that the AI is not agressive enough. There should probably be a ganging up on the human by most if not all of the AI's, and a more realistic model of trust and happiness, for maintaining Alliances, and getting AI's to agree.

The situation where the AI only agrees to stop trespass is only such an issue, because the player is almost the leader by default. There is no 'middle act' at the moment, and this desparately needs to be changed.

In answer to your second point, I've seen the AI virtually ICS in CtP1 (with medmod)... it remains to be seen how effective it can become in CtP2.

Regarding artifically maintained limitations, these seem so dumb. OCC is such a beast. ICS can definitely be mitigated or destroyed by altering the game mechanics appropriately. If it can be done, it should be done. Theres just no good reason not to.

[TheLimey]

Metamorph>

Its interesting to hear you say that ICS is mitigated in CtP2. What I get from the player reports in general is that its far too easy to grow a city in whatever location is available, without the aid of TI's and improvements. TI's and improvements SHOULD be necessary to grow in less optimal spots, forcing players to resource new cities appropriately and stamp out the remnants of the curse of ICS.

Regarding Wall of Flesh, or Wall of Beef as it was in CtP1 , I think I have an idea of how to mitigate this, that I mentioned above. Make war much more expensive. I.E. You still CAN make war but do you WANT TO?

Less units doesn't mean less of a game; it will run quicker, and make the units that are there more important.

The more I see, the more I think, less IS more.

[TheLimey]

Metamorph>

Its interesting to hear you say that ICS is mitigated in CtP2. What I get from the player reports in general is that its far too easy to grow a city in whatever location is available, without the aid of TI's and improvements. TI's and improvements SHOULD be necessary to grow in less optimal spots, forcing players to resource new cities appropriately and stamp out the remnants of the curse of ICS.

Regarding Wall of Flesh, or Wall of Beef as it was in CtP1 , I think I have an idea of how to mitigate this, that I mentioned above. Make war much more expensive. I.E. You still CAN make war but do you WANT TO?

Less units doesn't mean less of a game; it will run quicker, and make the units that are there more important.

The more I see, the more I think, less IS more.

[TheLimey]

Metamorph>

Its interesting to hear you say that ICS is mitigated in CtP2. What I get from the player reports in general is that its far too easy to grow a city in whatever location is available, without the aid of TI's and improvements. TI's and improvements SHOULD be necessary to grow in less optimal spots, forcing players to resource new cities appropriately and stamp out the remnants of the curse of ICS.

Regarding Wall of Flesh, or Wall of Beef as it was in CtP1 , I think I have an idea of how to mitigate this, that I mentioned above. Make war much more expensive. I.E. You still CAN make war but do you WANT TO?

Less units doesn't mean less of a game; it will run quicker, and make the units that are there more important.

The more I see, the more I think, less IS more.

[TheLimey]

Metamorph>

Its interesting to hear you say that ICS is mitigated in CtP2. What I get from the player reports in general is that its far too easy to grow a city in whatever location is available, without the aid of TI's and improvements. TI's and improvements SHOULD be necessary to grow in less optimal spots, forcing players to resource new cities appropriately and stamp out the remnants of the curse of ICS.

Regarding Wall of Flesh, or Wall of Beef as it was in CtP1 , I think I have an idea of how to mitigate this, that I mentioned above. Make war much more expensive. I.E. You still CAN make war but do you WANT TO?

Less units doesn't mean less of a game; it will run quicker, and make the units that are there more important.

The more I see, the more I think, less IS more.

[TheLimey]

I almost forgot to mention, that I strongly believe that the slaver should be destroyed after capturing one slave through battle.

Thats another 'Infinite Sleaze' blag newly introduced in CtP1 and continued in CtP2. Of course, anti-slaver stuff should be made more expensive.

[TheLimey]

I almost forgot to mention, that I strongly believe that the slaver should be destroyed after capturing one slave through battle.

Thats another 'Infinite Sleaze' blag newly introduced in CtP1 and continued in CtP2. Of course, anti-slaver stuff should be made more expensive.

[TheLimey]

I almost forgot to mention, that I strongly believe that the slaver should be destroyed after capturing one slave through battle.

Thats another 'Infinite Sleaze' blag newly introduced in CtP1 and continued in CtP2. Of course, anti-slaver stuff should be made more expensive.

[TheLimey]

I almost forgot to mention, that I strongly believe that the slaver should be destroyed after capturing one slave through battle.

Thats another 'Infinite Sleaze' blag newly introduced in CtP1 and continued in CtP2. Of course, anti-slaver stuff should be made more expensive.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Limey et al: One way to realistically hamper the "Build thru Slavery" model in CtPII, which I admit was an easy way to "supersize" early cities in CtPI, is to introduce the real drawbacks to slavery into the game. Neither CtPI nor, apparently, CtPII have them now. They are:
Lack of Technical Improvement. It wasn't until the Roman Empire stopped expanding and bringing in slaves, coupled with a serious manpower shortage within the Empire, that they developed the great multiple-water wheel-powered mills or the windmills that powered much of the medieval improvements in manufacturing. Likewise, Heiro's early experiments with hydraulic and steam-powered gadgets went nowhere because with plenty of slave labor no one needed powered machinery to replace manual labor.
Diplomatic Trouble. Quickest way to become enemies with some civilizations was to enslave their poeple. Rome was guaranteed to come after anyone enslaving Roman citizens, and Christian states in the later middle ages took an extremely dim view of non-Christians enslaving the believers. Later still, once the view that slavery was morally wrong began to spread, being a slave-holding state could leave you seriously isolated - as in the American Confederacy in the ACW, which even through military victories couldn't overcome the moral reluctance of European powers to intervene on the side of slavers.
Slave Revolt. Even when the slaves don't revolt, immense resources have to be allocated to keep an eye on them. Sparta became a miliarist state partly to keep its Helots down, After the Spartacus episode Rome had large numbers of troops and semi-military vigiles watching the slave population.Count up the Overseers, Slave Catchers, Guards, Militia, etc., etc in the American South in the 1850s, and an appreciable percentage of the otherwise-productive part of the population is tied down watching their slaves.
I think, if these elements were included in the game, the practice of slavery would become more 'balanced' and the option to become a slave-holding civ would be a real choice instead of one you can't afford to make because slaves make it too easy to outstrip your opponents.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Limey et al: One way to realistically hamper the "Build thru Slavery" model in CtPII, which I admit was an easy way to "supersize" early cities in CtPI, is to introduce the real drawbacks to slavery into the game. Neither CtPI nor, apparently, CtPII have them now. They are:
Lack of Technical Improvement. It wasn't until the Roman Empire stopped expanding and bringing in slaves, coupled with a serious manpower shortage within the Empire, that they developed the great multiple-water wheel-powered mills or the windmills that powered much of the medieval improvements in manufacturing. Likewise, Heiro's early experiments with hydraulic and steam-powered gadgets went nowhere because with plenty of slave labor no one needed powered machinery to replace manual labor.
Diplomatic Trouble. Quickest way to become enemies with some civilizations was to enslave their poeple. Rome was guaranteed to come after anyone enslaving Roman citizens, and Christian states in the later middle ages took an extremely dim view of non-Christians enslaving the believers. Later still, once the view that slavery was morally wrong began to spread, being a slave-holding state could leave you seriously isolated - as in the American Confederacy in the ACW, which even through military victories couldn't overcome the moral reluctance of European powers to intervene on the side of slavers.
Slave Revolt. Even when the slaves don't revolt, immense resources have to be allocated to keep an eye on them. Sparta became a miliarist state partly to keep its Helots down, After the Spartacus episode Rome had large numbers of troops and semi-military vigiles watching the slave population.Count up the Overseers, Slave Catchers, Guards, Militia, etc., etc in the American South in the 1850s, and an appreciable percentage of the otherwise-productive part of the population is tied down watching their slaves.
I think, if these elements were included in the game, the practice of slavery would become more 'balanced' and the option to become a slave-holding civ would be a real choice instead of one you can't afford to make because slaves make it too easy to outstrip your opponents.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Limey et al: One way to realistically hamper the "Build thru Slavery" model in CtPII, which I admit was an easy way to "supersize" early cities in CtPI, is to introduce the real drawbacks to slavery into the game. Neither CtPI nor, apparently, CtPII have them now. They are:
Lack of Technical Improvement. It wasn't until the Roman Empire stopped expanding and bringing in slaves, coupled with a serious manpower shortage within the Empire, that they developed the great multiple-water wheel-powered mills or the windmills that powered much of the medieval improvements in manufacturing. Likewise, Heiro's early experiments with hydraulic and steam-powered gadgets went nowhere because with plenty of slave labor no one needed powered machinery to replace manual labor.
Diplomatic Trouble. Quickest way to become enemies with some civilizations was to enslave their poeple. Rome was guaranteed to come after anyone enslaving Roman citizens, and Christian states in the later middle ages took an extremely dim view of non-Christians enslaving the believers. Later still, once the view that slavery was morally wrong began to spread, being a slave-holding state could leave you seriously isolated - as in the American Confederacy in the ACW, which even through military victories couldn't overcome the moral reluctance of European powers to intervene on the side of slavers.
Slave Revolt. Even when the slaves don't revolt, immense resources have to be allocated to keep an eye on them. Sparta became a miliarist state partly to keep its Helots down, After the Spartacus episode Rome had large numbers of troops and semi-military vigiles watching the slave population.Count up the Overseers, Slave Catchers, Guards, Militia, etc., etc in the American South in the 1850s, and an appreciable percentage of the otherwise-productive part of the population is tied down watching their slaves.
I think, if these elements were included in the game, the practice of slavery would become more 'balanced' and the option to become a slave-holding civ would be a real choice instead of one you can't afford to make because slaves make it too easy to outstrip your opponents.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Limey et al: One way to realistically hamper the "Build thru Slavery" model in CtPII, which I admit was an easy way to "supersize" early cities in CtPI, is to introduce the real drawbacks to slavery into the game. Neither CtPI nor, apparently, CtPII have them now. They are:
Lack of Technical Improvement. It wasn't until the Roman Empire stopped expanding and bringing in slaves, coupled with a serious manpower shortage within the Empire, that they developed the great multiple-water wheel-powered mills or the windmills that powered much of the medieval improvements in manufacturing. Likewise, Heiro's early experiments with hydraulic and steam-powered gadgets went nowhere because with plenty of slave labor no one needed powered machinery to replace manual labor.
Diplomatic Trouble. Quickest way to become enemies with some civilizations was to enslave their poeple. Rome was guaranteed to come after anyone enslaving Roman citizens, and Christian states in the later middle ages took an extremely dim view of non-Christians enslaving the believers. Later still, once the view that slavery was morally wrong began to spread, being a slave-holding state could leave you seriously isolated - as in the American Confederacy in the ACW, which even through military victories couldn't overcome the moral reluctance of European powers to intervene on the side of slavers.
Slave Revolt. Even when the slaves don't revolt, immense resources have to be allocated to keep an eye on them. Sparta became a miliarist state partly to keep its Helots down, After the Spartacus episode Rome had large numbers of troops and semi-military vigiles watching the slave population.Count up the Overseers, Slave Catchers, Guards, Militia, etc., etc in the American South in the 1850s, and an appreciable percentage of the otherwise-productive part of the population is tied down watching their slaves.
I think, if these elements were included in the game, the practice of slavery would become more 'balanced' and the option to become a slave-holding civ would be a real choice instead of one you can't afford to make because slaves make it too easy to outstrip your opponents.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Depp, I have to agree with you. I've played about a half-dozen games into the end of the Ancient era, and both my and the ai's cities grow like weeds in anything other than Tundra-Glacier tiles. Just t'ain't right. Historically, the ancient cities that reached 100,000+ population were very limited in number, and in every case it took some serious developments, including long-range (sea or river-based) food imports to get there. Really big cities, like Babylon (600BC), Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, etc., in the 500,000 - 2,000,000 range took the resources of most of an empire plus major food trade to maintain them, and as soon as anything went wrong they 'devolved' very quickly, as happened to Babylon and Rome both.
I'm jiggering the food production in tiles and improvements now, and hope to play a test game in the coming week (I can only play an hour or so a night during the week - gotta work to keep the wolf from having pups on the front porch) to see how it works out. Part of the solution, I think, is to increase the food available from developed tiles, making Farms really important, add a Food Trade possibility in the Trade system, and make it possible to still build units and improvements in a non-supersized city.
Also, historically the mega cities started growing with the advent of Railroad, which allowed very long range food trade and production: New York was fed from California once the railroads went in. If I can take the test game that far in a timely manner, I'll try playing with a greatly increased +Food effect for the Food Silo improvement associated with Railroads or (if I can figure out how to do it) some kind of + Food effect associated with having a railroad connection between cities...

[Elucidus]

That's all well and good, but history isn't always fun. This is a game so let's keep. Okay, with that said here we go.
In game terms a city doesn't reach it's max tile size until it is a size like 46 or 47, which I believe is why the food is easier to get. All in all a huge city like that has got to be hard to feed even with farms and the like. I think this is to make up for the fact that you can fit less cities in the same space as you could in CTP1 (to full potential that is). This is all just my opinion, and comments are welcome.

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Yours in gaming,
~Elucidus