Unique Units

[Maquiladora]

As i was thinking of other new concepts from "that game" i was wondering how/can the Unique Unit's could be fitted into CTP2. I think its a very good idea, but wasnt really executed properly. From my experience i found them only useful for rushing wonders, as i wasnt really interested in conquest (not without PROPER stacking ) and would only luckily gain them through ridding my territory of barbs, which wasnt all that often.

Well anyway back to me point... one idea is that there could be seperate ''dead end branches'' on the tech tree, if you like. And the first Civ to discover this "branch" would gain that special advance and the asscociated UU that comes with it. And then blocking any other civ from researching that advance, in the kind of way the gunpowder feat is completed, except excluding the UU and the advance thereafter, to all other civs. Thats the hard part. Heck i dont know if its even possible I just like the idea of UU's and it could only make the game even more engrossing.. any other ideas of how this could be implemented would be welcome..

[child of Thor]

To UU or not to UU, that is the big hairy question

Light side:

Gives your civ more identity
Can be fun to rush to your prefered unit

Dark side:

Name some games that balance UU's perfectly so the game is both balanced and you can play any 'nation' with no penalty.
Name some games where UU's unbalance the game and you find yourself playing the same 'nation' over and over.

This is the fundemental problem with UU's, especially in a game like Civ/CTP2 etc. There have been a few threads that have touched on it and in CTP2 the nearest you can get to it is either with the 'super units' of Craddle(Ceasar etc) or in MedMod with the 'zulu' units etc.
I like the idea on some levels - even if each civ just had different names+Sprites per unit, but their combat values were the same for example.
Yep it's a tough one......

[Maquiladora]

well i thought i had cancelled this thread just before it went through, i was doing a quick search for threads on the same subject and decided to cancel it as it was going through i thought it may be repeating, but thanks for replying

Anyway to carry on from what you said, the plus points. Well in my thinking i had considered a flexible UU, which could be reached by the first Civ to "discover" it if you like. Like not simply choosing a civ at the start and gaining their UU, but racing towards the desired UU.

Or, which i think is more fair, a random chance at the beginning of each game to which UU you get. ie no choice in the matter. Then if you get say an ancient age UU, you better get your socks on and use its advantages now while theyre still formidable to the opposition. While this would be more fair and exciting to play (for me anyway) it might not be everyones cup of tea, for example playing as the England and having an elephant as your UU.

I know it can have a hugely unbalancing effect. Especially if the UU are all in different eras. Their combat values and cost have to be perfect so as not to make the advantage too over-powering. But frankly "paper, scissors, stone" is the only game ive played that wasnt unbalanced.. naughts and crosses too. anyway

[child of Thor]

He!he! Yeah sometimes apolyton is like a wild animal and does its own thing - i get nervous when i write a reply and it 'times out' on me Still i've perfected a system where by if it does time out and i have to sign in again after trying to post, i just click 'back' in explorer twice and click refresh - 99% of the time it works ok.
As to the UU thing, well the nearset i've played to it where it is very specific is AOE, and it never bothered me that much as i always like to play as the Celts out of the choices available anyway. In terms of a civ type game, well i still haven't played Civ3 yet so you may have more experience than me as to how it actually plays - is a good/bad thing, is it worth doing if say the game is pretty much over by the time your civ's UU comes around etc. I know a few people really hate the idea of CTP2 going this way, and i can see there point of view. Still some added 'personality' to your civ in CTP2 is IMHO a good thing to try to achieve, how exactly is the best way to do this another matter. For the record i'd like to see each civ having unique sprites for all it's units - based as much as possible on historical records. This was discussed a bit and everyone was agreed on one thing - it would be a HUGE amount of work to try to do and there may be restrictions within CTP2.exe as to how many sprites you can have in a single game.And most people felt the results verses the work involved would not really make it worth while to attempt. I disagree with the last bit and if ever i get time to really look into this game it's something i may play with one day(no-one hold their breath - i enjoy playing CTP2, and barely find time for that!). And yeah who ever invented 'paper,sicissors,stone' should be awarded some kind of United Nations award for services to humanity, if only all diplomatic problems were resolved this way the world would be a better place

[J Bytheway]

I presume there's the same limit as in CTP1 of 199 sprites - so you'd be hard-pressed to get much variation. Maybe in a mod which focused on a certain era, but not over all history...

[Maquiladora]

Does anyone know if there is anyone working on UU's specifically at the moment? I did a quick search and there was someone but he gave up the ghost a while ago for civ3

[Immortal Wombat]

Depending on how the UU system is set up, there isn't too much work to be done, the bulk of it will be finding the sprites. I think Locutus is looking vaguely at it for his new Mod, but finding the sprites is going to be hardest.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Name some games that balance UU's perfectly so the game is both balanced and you can play any 'nation' with no penalty.
Name some games where UU's unbalance the game and you find yourself playing the same 'nation' over and over.

Actual this is the sense of UU to give you a speacial advance over the other civs. But you are right on the problem, too. Therefore it is better to give them randomly. But the disadvantage of this method is that the civs aren't less unique then unique units for every civ personally would be.

-Martin

[Maquiladora]

I like the idea that it makes the you use a different strategy for each nation you play, even if it will become obvious which strategy to use and when.
For example, the English could have the spitfire as their UU, give it far superior stats and it would encourage the player to have a strong/er airforce. BTW i dont think the spitfire is the best choice UU for the english. And maybe its too late in the game for some i know dont play that far into the game, me included.

Maybe if there isnt enough sprites, then maybe there needs to be alot less Civs to choose from. To make them totally unique rather than a few looking very similar.

[Pedrunn]

Unless you divide the civs into groups.
Like Mediterran, Mid-Eastern, Far-Eastern, African (Tribal?), American...

Or into their real-life golden age. Like Industrial age civs(Musketeer), Ancient age civs(Chariot, Immortal), Medieval Age (Samurai, Berserker), Classical Age Civs(Phalanx, Legion), Information Age (Mig, F-15, Marines)...

[ZaphodBeeblebrx]

And how about Civilizations, like the Hebrews, or to an even greater extent, the Egyptians and especially Chinese, that have experienced multiple Golden Ages, with a period of Mediocrity in between.

I'd just love to see a game that could show case That!

Maybe Locutus' Mod/Sequel could do it? Now, if only he weren't on Vacation . . .

[Immortal Wombat]

...I think the plan is to get his actual vacation out of the way in early summer, and then give him until September to produce the basis of his CtP3 mod.

Multiple 'golden ages' are probably conceivable, depending on your definiton of 'golden age', but then why choose a civ that gets one if there are civs that get two?

[ZaphodBeeblebrx]

Well, I'm Jewish, so let's start there:

As the Israelites, we had a pretty good Tyrany going, until that is, Famine drove us to Egypt, (so the legends say, anyway) until they kicked us out, probably starting with the Hyskos, and then moving on to their friends.

Once back home, we kicked out the Peoples who had moved in after us, and then set up a set of Tribal Councils, before being beaten by the Babylonians, who then, also, kicked us out (ever get the feeling that you're not wanted).

After a period of Anarchy, we finally managed to found a fairly Strong Kingdom, which then suffered a Civil War.

Within a Century, or two, after that, the Assyrians Conquered Israel, and almost beat Judah, before being beaten in turn, by the Persians.

It is now, that we get into True Historical Accounts, and the time, for another post.

[ZaphodBeeblebrx]

Meanwhile . . .

A Macedonian Prince, named Alexander, after being emboldened by his father's Victories, and Tutored by a Great Greek Sage, was having dreams of World Domination.

Towards the middle of his Conquests, after Capturing Greece, and on the Road to Egypt, he found Judah and added it to his Empire, some say without a Fight.

After Alexander, now called The Great, as he went on to Conquer much of the Classical World, died, his Kingdom fell into the Hands of his Generals.

One of these Generals, forced my People, to worship his Gods, instead of our own, so we Revolted, and in our First True Millitary Victory, in a Thousand Years, regained our Freedom.

But this was not to last.

[ZaphodBeeblebrx]

We then fell into the Roman, again with only Token Defense, if any, and were allowed to keep our beliefs, unmolested.

Until, that is, the Romans became too greedy, and taxed us heavily.

Eventually, we Revolted again, but History did not repeat itself, and in a cycle of Destruction and Revolt, we were beaten, eventually even losing our Stronghold, at Masada, and we were Banished from our homes, seemingly for good.

Even in exile, we pioneered, what later became known as, the Polish Plains, and made a good life for ourselves, before being kicked out, yet again, and becoming a City Folk.

It is there that our Story would end, were it not for Three Movements, Zionism, Nazism, and the British Commonwealth.

As the Nazis Murdered us in Europe, the Zionists continued their Pledge to Retake Israel, now, rather inconveniently, in the hands of the British, and their Palestinian Subjects.

After the War, However, we were given a New Chance, in the Form of our Own State.

The Road after that was long, and is still, regretably, unfinished, but every Israeli Soldier remembers our History, when they take this Vow, "Masada must Never, fall again!"

Now, let's see if we can put a Saga like that, into a Game!