Wish list for CTP2(future Mods)

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by child of Thor
I would love civ-specific units(if only in form - not stats), but i've been told the work involved would be HUGE!, still i got a good 40-50 years left, so maybe i'll get around to it. Seeing short/dark welsh archers+spearmen taking on taller/fair english(saxon)swordsmen would IMHO be great fun!(or greek Phalanx's take on persian horse etc.). What's great about CTP2 is that this IS entirely possible to do.

Have you played MM2 and saw the Elite Units. Thsi is a unit that you randomly get (still based on terrains) after reseach an advance. And become only yours. Like a unique civ (it is a unique civ) but africans can get samurais and europeans can ge zulu warriors.
And who told you that it is difficult to implement? It isnt at all!

Here is a sample a code i am using for my Space Scenario to have specific units for each race.

///////////////////////////////////////////
/// 1) Especific Units for Each Race   ///
//////////////////////////////////////////

mod_CanCityBuildUnit(int_t theCity, int_t theUnit) {
int_t tmpCity;
int_t tmpUnit;
tmpCity = theCity;
tmpUnit = theUnit;

   if (tmpUnit == UnitDB(UNIT_HUMAN_FIGHTER)) {
      if (PlayerCivilization(tmpCity.owner) == CivilizationIndex(“HUMAN”)) {
         return 1;   
      } else {
         return 0;
      }
   } elseif (tmpUnit == UnitDB(UNIT_KRI_THREEN_FIGHTER)) {
      if (PlayerCivilization(tmpCity.owner) == CivilizationIndex(“KRI_THREEN”))  {
         return 1;   
      } else {
         return 0;
      }   
} elseif (tmpUnit == UnitDB(UNIT_BORG_FIGHTER)) {
      if (PlayerCivilization(tmpCity.owner) == CivilizationIndex(“BORG”))  {
         return 1;   
      } else {
         return 0;
      }
} else {
      return 1;   // all other units can be built by anyone
   }
}

Although i prefer Elite units (rather rewrite history tha re live it). And i like the suspense of wich unit i will get. And the combination like i mention above.

[child of Thor]

Thanks Pedrunn, Yes i've played a fair bit of MedMod(1.2 i think?) - and i love the elite units, i'm pretty sure i dont need an elephant trade tile to build the Elephant unit(one of my favourites) i could be wrong on this?, but i would like it to be so.
And i think 'I' would find it difficult to code the relationship between a tile improvement/trade good and ability to build certain units/advances
The 'HUGE' amount of work i was refering to was in createing all the different Sprites i'd like to have in a game(at a rough guess i'd like to create 100+new sprites).That's why i'll need 20 years or so , especially considering i haven't started yet!
By the way, i'm looking forward to your Space mod

[Bluevoss]

City tiles - that reminds me of an old wish list idea.

Maybe the simplest idea would be to make a standard "tiny little house" tile. This would represent sprawl (of all ages). It would be PURCHASED (like any other tile, via PW) and its effect would be to lesson the growth checks (the red part of the growth bar), just like a grainery or a silo.

Since the player would get to place it where he wanted, he could make sure it would go into tiles that would be otherwise worthless to him (Managed Growth! Cool!).

And, of course, since this would ALSO represent growth outside the city walls, then conquring armies could burn up these tiles (i.e. burn the outer districts).

[TheArsenal]

Something that caught my eye: WesW in another thread said, "Particularly in the later game it should be possible to capture enemy vehicles and employ them for own army (siege weapons, artillery, tanks, etc)."

In addition to this though, I feel that conscription, enslaving enemy population as soldiers, is an interesting concept worth considering. Armies often turned captured civilians into cannon fodder giving them the choice of being shot in the front by the "enemy" or in the back by their "own" soldiers. If it were possible to implement this concept (and I have no idea if it is possible or a desirable game addition for others than me), I wonder if the more complex aspects of conscription - that they were traditionally poorly armed and therefore surrendered and were killed more quickly - could be implemented as well. Also, if one could turn a city's pop into units, it could hardly be at a one for one rate. Capturing a city of 26 and suddenly being able to have 26 more units would be a bit unbalancing.

This also caught my eye from the same posting "*What would really be nice is to sell or give away units, based upon their production cost. This is historically accurate, and would really help balance or spice up the game (USSR shipments to North Vietnam, US selling to the Israeli's)".

That would be awesome. I find myself constantly giving away tech only to tiny nations at war with one of my rivals just to keep them alive long enough to deplete some of the rival's armies, resources, etc. But this is usually just a life support operation not doing much good. By the same token, I am wary of giving tech to medium sized civs that will survive through the game, because later down the road it will come back to bite me. Selling units solves both of these problems.

Just a thought.

[Locutus]

A little off-topic perhaps but in response to Sir Ralph's first post: you might like MedMod better. Slightly less challenging AI perhaps (although Wes *has* been messing with the files lately, haven't had a decent chance to test the latest version yet), but a faster game less focussed on the ancient age.

As for no masses of new people coming here: quite the contrary is the case. I read about new people trying CtP2 almost on a daily basis (well, maybe not daily but certainly weekly): here in the CtP2 forums, via email, via ICQ, via PM. I'm sure some others here have similar experiences. I just got two of such reports today. I think it's safe to say that the size of the CtP2 community grew by a factor 5 at least since November last year... Many of them don't or hardly show themselves on the forums though, they only lurk (or don't visit the forums at all). Don't ask me why either, but as you may have noticed I'm working very hard on trying to do something about that.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by child of Thor
I don't think i've ever seen an unbelievable placement of a Good, so could Goods be used as prerequisites for units/improvements/advances? Martin?

Of course this is possible, I already thought of good dependent techs. You can use the GrantAdvance event to give one civ an advance, and there is also a function that returns true or false on the question if there is trade good in the be worked city radius. So why should you invent elephant as war unit if you don't know the the elephant.

-Martin

[Immortal Wombat]

But there's almost no trade SLIC, and nothing that will distinguish between traded goods.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Locutus
I just got two of such reports today.

Make that three - it's a good day for CtP2

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Locutus
A little off-topic perhaps but in response to Sir Ralph's first post: you might like MedMod better. Slightly less challenging AI perhaps (although Wes *has* been messing with the files lately, haven't had a decent chance to test the latest version yet), but a faster game less focussed on the ancient age.

Yes you are definitely right. I don't like the ancient age, at the countrary, even in Civ3 I try to get out of it as soon as I can. I just tried Cradle first because it was described as the best by almost all people I asked. I should have stopped to play as soon as I realized that it starts 7000BC with unchanged 20 year turns, and not waste my time with it. Another reason was, as you know, I've had trouble to install it and didn't want this time to be wasted.

I will try Apolyton pack, MedMod and, of course WaW later (may be even this one first, it sounds fun). That will take long tho, as my spare time will be filled with several Civ3 tournaments the next months. Civ3 has left it's greatest problems behind, for me just multiplaying is still an issue, so these tournaments should be fun. I'm not much into scenarios and mods anyway, and most of tournaments require a plain patched game.

[Locutus]

Yep, in terms of challenging gameplay, Cradle is still the best. But as you can see in the new topped thread in this forum, there are many mods for this game. Different tastes, different games... Personally I don't care too much for ages, I have a slight preference for the ancient/classical age, but as long as the gameplay is good, you won't hear me complaining...

If you've been reading these forums (dunno if you have), you'd know that Wes will soon make a major upgrade to the MedMod, you probably want to wait for that before trying it. WaW is indeed a lot of fun, a nice thing to try while you wait for the MedMod upgrade to arrive. In my case, the fact that it only covers 50 years is no big deal since the gameplay is pretty good, but I can see how you might disagree on that...

It's good to know you're still playing though, even if it's not much You ought to give the CtP2 tournaments a chance as well some day, if you have the time */shameless plug*

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


Of course this is possible, I already thought of good dependent techs. You can use the GrantAdvance event to give one civ an advance, and there is also a function that returns true or false on the question if there is trade good in the be worked city radius. So why should you invent elephant as war unit if you don't know the the elephant.

-Martin

Thanks Martin - Don't suppose your good dependent techs are available in a list here are they???(if you want to keep them close to your chest thats cool).
Now i know that can be done for techs/advances i'll post some ideas on that. I think this is a very exciting prospect - it will make land really valuable.
But before i get too excited IW comments are not so good, so are you saying, for example, that the game can't account for different types of trade goods(the difference between an elephant or diamonds)? Each has different values as trade goods don't they? and at the end of the day to use them as prerequisites all you need to differentiate them is a name no? e.g.
//
Build_Unit(8)[WarElephant]
Require_Advance(WarElephant[1])
Require_TradeGood(Elephant[1])
ELSE/IF No Build_Unit(8)[WarElephant]
//

Sorry, excuse me!
Anyway you see what i'm (not?) getting at?

Bluevoss,
I like that idea of the growth tile(AI could use it easily too ), and being able to destroy it! Put a link in to that wish list you mentioned(if you can find it!).

TheArsenal,
Yeah that slaveing ability is in the Craddle mod - it is very powerfull(maybe too powerfull?), but its a very important part of history. Most of the big Civillisations used slaves in one form or another, so it does need to be part of the early game.I think in Craddle you can only take slaves from captured cities, but not from the field of battle(as this was way too much of an advantage for the player).But yes more work in this area would not go amiss for the ancient mods.
I use the same strategy as you - give techs to weaker nations to help them fight my enemies etc.And you are right - it never really seems to give that much help. The unit idea is a good one(is the link to Wes's idea one of the one's above?If not then you can put one in, or point me too it and i'll do it ) - direct help that would make a difference.Should you just be allowed to give/sell as much as you can? Or should there be limiters like, for example, the lowering of regard(towards you and the receiver)of the surrounding civs, or maybe dependent on your current diplomatic relations with the civ you wish to buy/sell from i.e. you can't buy from your enemies etc?

Sir Ralph,
Yep i'd definatly give WAW a go - its the easiest of the mods to download(I speak from having problems when i first started downloading mods- it took me a few attempts), and it starts VERY fast and doesn't let up! one tip - don't bother with diplomacy, it'll end in tears! just churn out the units and try to stay alive! I feel it needs the odd tweak etc to be really great, but judgeing from your comments on CTP2 generally i think you'll like it

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Yeah that slaveing ability is in the Craddle mod - it is very powerfull(maybe too powerfull?), but its a very important part of history. Most of the big Civillisations used slaves in one form or another, so it does need to be part of the early game.I think in Craddle you can only take slaves from captured cities, but not from the field of battle (as this was way too much of an advantage for the player).

Actually, Cradle employs two types of slavers (Slaver can only capture settlers and workers from cities, and Slavemasters can only enslave enemy units in a battle), three gov-specific units that can enslave, and all of the Ancient Leader units. Although the human player can still enslave more effectively than the AI, the gap has been closed.

As for a unit capture feature, this is also part of Cradle, courtesy of IW's POW code. I have it tied into Medieval+ Leader units only, as this code has the potential of becoming too powerful to the point of unbalancing the game.

Sir Ralph,
No offense taken by any of your comments... I'm glad they were posted because they are questions that other may have about Modded CTP2.

All of my comments are to make people aware of the fact that Modded CTP2 is not the game that Activision released, and those who have a bias at the series because of a perceived weakness in the AI may be surprised by what has been accomplished here - all we are asking is for an open mind. I know from fact that several current Modded CTP2 players had a strong bias against the CTP series until they actually read about what we have done and gave the Mods a try.

The Modders can't do much about some of the preference issues - at the same time, if we wanted the game to be like civ3, we would be playing civ3. Still, there are a lot of good ideas in civ3 that are making their way into the CTP2 Mods.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by hexagonian


Actually, Cradle employs two types of slavers (Slaver can only capture settlers and workers from cities, and Slavemasters can only enslave enemy units in a battle), three gov-specific units that can enslave, and all of the Ancient Leader units. Although the human player can still enslave more effectively than the AI, the gap has been closed.

Ah yes, slavemasters! I'd forgotten about them(don't usualy build them)and of course the Ancient Leader units(I usually do have them in my stacks that attack cities- so that's where my confussion comes from). Thanks for clarifying that.

I know from fact that several current Modded CTP2 players had a strong bias against the CTP series until they actually read about what we have done and gave the Mods a try.

Yeah, i'm one of them - boy did i fume when i tried original CTP2, and i've made it my point to never be in that situation again, thus my lack of Civ3 ownership(when it has MP i'll get it).

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by child of Thor

Thanks Martin - Don't suppose your good dependent techs are available in a list here are they???(if you want to keep them close to your chest thats cool).
Now i know that can be done for techs/advances i'll post some ideas on that. I think this is a very exciting prospect - it will make land really valuable.

Yeah that is a really interesting thing, another idea: If you don't have montians or hills in your empire than sorry for you no stone working. That would be terrain dependent techs. It is true that this would require a new tech tree. As it would need a lot of auxilery techs that you get for having a good in your borders that can be checked over the CityCollectingGood function if the good is not traded otherwise I can check all the terrain tiles around the city, maybe the city[0] array can be used as loaction (city radius), that would make things easier, forts surroundings could be checked if the fort is finished.

Another function that I found in Locutus' slic function list is GetTradeFrom, unfortunatly I have no idea what are the paramenters of the function I can use, if it really works. Of course it is easy if the slic interpreter will give the proper error message but if not than I can put this function into the code without any effect. But maybe that could rather a function of diplomatic interest.

Here are some others functions that can be found in Locutus' slic function list:

RejectTradeBid
AcceptTradeBid
SendTradeBid

Rather functions of diplomacy interests, some old functions from CTP1 but not covered in the CTP2 slic documentation. And they couldn't work probably as the biding on foreign goods is no longer present in CTP2.

Here are some other:

DontAcceptTradeOffer
AcceptTradeOffer

No idea if these function works.
These should work as they are mentioned in the slic documentation accept the first one:

HasSameGoodAsTraded
TradeRoutes
TradePoints

The TradeBid function might be obsolete, too. But at least you should try it.

At least with the SendGood event we could get to know which goods are traded. Than it would be possible to give the receiver of the good the good advance.

Here are some other functions that could be used if they are known and work:

GoodVisibutik
GoodCountTotal
GoodCount
GoodType
AddGoods

In the end the result would be a new version of GoodMod which is completely different to the first one, yeah a new file prefix would be needed GM2_ if you rather like the original game without too much changes.

-Martin

[Peter Triggs]

Another function that I found in Locutus' slic function list is GetTradeFrom, unfortunatly I have no idea what are the paramenters of the function I can use,

The syntax is

INT GetTradeFrom(int < player > , int < player > )

and, IIRC, it returns how much gold first player got in trade from second player on the last turn.

I think that most of those other functions are old SLIC1 functions and some of them were never implemented.

Here's the version of Mr Ogre's SLIC1 documentation that Locutus edited. (He's probably forgotten that he did this.)