Wish list for CTP2(future Mods)

[child of Thor]

Slavery
This one really troubles me. I don't like to use it my games(moral grounds - nothing else), but i usually do a bit of it(especially if some civ enslaved me first.
Nearly all ancient civs/peoples used slaves of some sort or another - it was almost vital to ancient man it seems. MiddleEast,America's,Europe,Africa,Asia (don't know about Aborigonal Australia?) all ruleing people's in these area's used slaves. So it's a huge part of early civillised mankind. And it has huge repercussions, that i feel aren't powerfully enough expressed in the game. It doesn't seem to make too a huge a difference when The Emancipation Act happens. In the games i've played all that happens is maybe a bit of revolution in a few cities of the most slave crazy nations. I've never seen a civ ripped apart by revolt, which has happened on the odd occasion. How a people once enslaved view their oppressors is important(at the risk of massive oversimplification), the MiddleEast conflict is a case in point that can trace its origins to slavery on a large scale by the egyptian Pharohs. I think any nation(within the game) that undertakes mass-slavery as a means to get-ahead should suffer permanent loss of regard with the enslaved civ. I'll continue this some more later.

[Bluevoss]

Thor,

The problem is, outside of America (and THIS is only becuase we've gotten to an age where PR and media drive a number of issues) slavery did not have far reaching effects. Most of the time, slaves were eventually absorbed into the host civilization.

Where are the Phoenicians? The Carthigians? All were destroyed by other civilizations, the survivors sold into slavery and scattered to other cities, absorbed in a number of generations. There are no hard feelings becuase, after a number of generations, the former-slaves no longer associate with their former nations. They are too busy getting ahead in their "homeland".

As for the Jews in Egypt, one has to be very careful to determine what is myth, and what is reality. There is a growing belief that a lot of the "slavery" was simply labor looking for someplace to be used (Canaan being a poor region, while Egypt was opulant in wealth and food). As for the Exidous, its getting harder and harder to pin down just when that happened.

The worst case of slavery I can think of were the Germans "enslaving" Eastern Europian Jews, and the Russians "enslaving" German military units. In the former case, there is still the echo of a discussion taking place, in the second, there is little if anything about it.

As an twenty-first century citizen, I am discusted by the thought of slavery. But playing a simulation of the ancient world, I'll engage in it whenever possible. Hats off to Activision for putting this needed historic aspect into the game.

[Pedrunn]

Actually the emancipation act in real life started (was build) with the Americans in 1776 and had effect until about 1830's when the Latin America became independent and freed their slaves (Except for sme countries like Brazil) influenced by the neighbors from the north and the French Revolution. So i do think there was a revolution and it did expand. Maybe beeing one turn like it is represented by the game is unrealist yet effective and close to represent what happened.

[The Big Mc]

Well I also think activsion did a good job putting slaves in ( I am putting the future version in my mod androids). witch you can make your self or steel them form your enemies

I would love to see the underwater terrain take off like activsion intended with changing deep see to shallow and vies versa . activsion put in a fifth tile imp box but I cant seam to get it to work right)

I am also working on a mine I found in the ctp1 zfs files could be good

But manly my moding is slowing down for a bit because it is exam time over here

[Aqtaca]

I disagree, Pedrunn on this matter. Slavery worldwide can't be ended by just one nation proclaiming freedom to it's slaves.

It even can't be ended in one civilizaton without a conflict- look what happened to US when Lincoln proclaimed freedom to all slaves. A civil war between South whose cities had huge numbers of slaves and North who had already become industrial land. A conflict of interests.

Aborigines didn't have slavery because their level of culture and society were on the level of 5000 BC Europe/Near East.
As we call it in archaeology, "Tribalo-clanic community". All members in that community were equal in rights and property was communal. In time, private property came to be and soon you had class of the rich exploitors and class of the poor exploitees. Not to waste your time any longer, as this has nothing to do with what we are trying to achieve here.

I am OK with it in the game. but i do mind i can get 10000 slaves from a victory (when i have slavemaster) whether i destroyed an army of 12 hoplites or 1 Prophet. It's ridiculous! 10000 is an unreasonably high number of slaves unless i enslave populations.
From army i can't get more than 5000, and i'm talking about 12 sized army.
I want to have enforced resettlement- and once i destroy a city, i want to get nomad units. Also, we should have an option of transporting population from one city to another, and an option where a settler can be added to a city.

Now, when we enter the age of "enlightment", when slavery is banned, exploatation of foreign lands doesn't have to stop- we can import immigrants. France does, Germany does, so why shouldn't my Aztecs? Basicaly, slavery transcends into " more refined means of exploatation". What a eufemism!

Have you guys thought of what i was saying about exploiting resources beyond your area of control with a unit we would borrow from Alpha Centauri or by building a colony.

Also, a new idea struck me yestreday while i was building my house in forest- i was eaten alive by mosquitos.
We should introduce terrain influence to units. You can't have an army marching through infernal desert without a drop of water for 50 years and when (if) they get out, they are 100% healthy.
Same goes for mountains, swamps, jungles and glaciers/tundras.
they would freeze, die of malaria. that was in civ 3 as well, just with cities and settler units.

[The Big Mc]

Hi

for the resources collecting felicity how about getting the old trading station to do it
you billed it as a tile imp but it also has a small zone of control.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Aqtaca
I disagree, Pedrunn on this matter. Slavery worldwide can't be ended by just one nation proclaiming freedom to it's slaves.

It even can't be ended in one civilizaton without a conflict- look what happened to US when Lincoln proclaimed freedom to all slaves. A civil war between South whose cities had huge numbers of slaves and North who had already become industrial land. A conflict of interests.

Maybe, but the US independence did influenced other countries to proclame independence therefore, not to mention the Monroe Doutrine where the kind of "sponsored" those.
The independence of the Latin America was a process the took a few decades to complete (if you exclude excepcion lik Cuba) and had influenced by many factors wich mostly was the sucess of the Iluminist Doutrines in US.

Originally posted by Aqtaca
I am OK with it in the game. but i do mind i can get 10000 slaves from a victory (when i have slavemaster) whether i destroyed an army of 12 hoplites or 1 Prophet. It's ridiculous! 10000 is an unreasonably high number of slaves unless i enslave populations.
From army i can't get more than 5000, and i'm talking about 12 sized army.
I want to have enforced resettlement- and once i destroy a city, i want to get nomad units. Also, we should have an option of transporting population from one city to another, and an option where a settler can be added to a city.

Actually for my mod i think the 10000 pop count too exagerate i am looking a way to set this count to 1000. I am still looking for a way to implement this.

Originally posted by Aqtaca
Have you guys thought of what i was saying about exploiting resources beyond your area of control with a unit we would borrow from Alpha Centauri or by building a colony.

I know how to implement the colony idea quite easy. We just need a code to teach the AI how to use it and make cities with size 0 impossible to receive slaves.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Aqtaca
Also, a new idea struck me yestreday while i was building my house in forest- i was eaten alive by mosquitos.
We should introduce terrain influence to units. You can't have an army marching through infernal desert without a drop of water for 50 years and when (if) they get out, they are 100% healthy.
Same goes for mountains, swamps, jungles and glaciers/tundras.
they would freeze, die of malaria. that was in civ 3 as well, just with cities and settler units.

There's also a chance in Civ3 that military units die of disease, if you leave them on a jungle or floodplain tile, although it's not big (would be annoying). The cultural assimilation of foreign citizens (in captured cities or from added foreign workers) depending from the government works also nicely. This is certainly something CtP2 could learn from Civ3.

[The Big Mc]

I did not know you could get slave from a battle.

Could this be extended to a prize system a infantry kills a canon you lose the infantry and get the canon ( if you have the advance)

[Bluevoss]

A little change in direction here -

Something I'd like to see is the deplomacy in the game enhanced. I understand that (for reasons of keeping pressure on the play) everyone pretty much hates your guts.

What I think the game really neads (for playballence) would be a way that if you were small, everyone pretty much likes you (there should still be a chance that another nation just hates you and crushes you for no reason). When you are small, you should have a good chance of getting map exhanges and treaties out of similar-sized nations. As you get larger, nations should be more and more atagonistic (to keep you from running away with the game).

I just wish there was some way that you COULD get a diplomatic victory under new mods like Cradle.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by The Big Mc
activsion put in a fifth tile imp box but I cant seam to get it to work right)

The fith tile imp box is only as an outcomented piece of code in the *.ldl file present. There is no sign of it in the ctp2.exe, so they never tried to implemented it, it was just on the design sheet, I guess it was intended for ocean terraforming.

-Martin

[child of Thor]

Slavery continued

Ok.Good points.
Aqtaca, i like that idea of transportation of population, wonder how or what you would need to do that in the game?Maybe the cities with the best facilities would attrack more of this 'transient' population(a small percentage of worldpop?) and be more likely to migrateto these cities?
Or if you wanted to just send x amount of population within your own empire, what is the best way to do this? Say the pretext was a massive earthquake that halved pop in city A so you send 20,000(2 pop points) from city B to help the damaged city recover quicker. This would be fine but it would in reality be a very traumatic time for those citizens who are nominated to up sticks and leave - what would be their incentive to do this(apart from the mad dictator forcing them?), should the happiness be reduced, should it be very expensive to do?what kind of costs should be involved to just stop the player from abuseing this to just pump his pop around to crank up his production?

World wide slavery i don't know much about. But I know for example that slaves were taken on a small indivdual scale by nearly all ancient british folk(Celts/Britons).(and vikings used to enslave people from their 'holiday' journeys.Thralls, bondsmen/bondswomen). The romans in turn enslaved the Britons etc etc. It was a usefull source of 'production' when you lived in smallish, clan based settlements. It was also seen as a status symbol. With these peoples you were often 'born' into servitude, and traded as such. This practice(at least in the U.K, and probably europe too), was around for a long time, really right up untill the discovery of the New world when there was a marked shift in slavery and of course the Slave Trade of the Africa's to the new colony's.
Slavery was widespread since at least 2000bc in UK(slave burials with important persons) and probably earlier right up untill the start of the American Civil war. So i know it happend here(western europe) on a very wide scale('Thrall' status is written in Viking law).
So yes it needs to be in the game(and is). I feel it just needs more pressence on the game.

1. It should be much harder to keep a city happy that has a high proportion of slaves.

2. Riots/rebellion much higher frequency of happening in slave cities.On that note corruption/crime?

3. Higher garrison requirements for slave cities.

4. Permanent effect on any nation you slave against(and vice versa) doesn't have to be massive. I don't forgive the english what they did to my countrymen, doesn't mean i want to kill them all though (scots and irish feel the same)

5. Lowering of regard from other neighbour nations if you take slaves(unless they do also?).

6. No slaves from battle - only a combat unit(weakest type - press ganged,no real will to fight?)

7. No automatic slaves from cityconquest(but an option like 'absorb' and comparable regard agustmens) just a nomad.

8. So the only way to get slaves is buy actively getting them from cities with i guess the slaver unit?

In the game if you decide to be an out and out slave maniac its really very easy to get too(IMO)powerfull from it, so some real 'problems' to being a slaveing nation need to be thought about,and a way to make this apply for the AI as well.

like the 'degrading' of troops out in the field along time - i know that should be a factor, its realistic(and strategic!). Maybe should have a limit to how much damage is taken, so they get to a weakend state but don't just drop dead at some point?

Diplomacy does need some balancing, but its been very hard for the modders to get a decent, competitive game in single player - and this has been a casualty of that to some extent. That's why i love MP - its much more realistic(and frustrating - no more little tricks to get your way!). Still Peter is looking at this so we will have to see what can be done. It's probably one of the biggest things that can make a difference to this game.fingers crossed

[Bluevoss]

I think its hard (in reality) to actually "move" people from one city to another. Regardless of disasters, its usually more trouble than its worth to pick up a portion of a population and shift it to another city. For one thing - a city is an integrated unit, and by pulling out (say) 20%, you probably damage the cities output by 40% (or more).

For example, as ruler, you decide that you want to shift people to a war-torn city. You give the order to each of your commanders to gather so many citizens for the move. And you know how that works - eventually some flunky in charge of a squad lazily clears out one street out of his 10 block detail - at thats it for "The Street of Bakers". With no bakeries, that part of the city falls into poverty and ruin fairly quickly. The ruler ends up moving populations back to make up for those killed in riots.

Really, the only times I can remember mass-migrations of people from one place to another, its generally at the end of a spear/gun.

One of the better suggestions I've read was to tie population to happyness. If you have a large city but can keep it happy, people will still move there. But if there are riots more and more frequently, people will not come there (or will leave). That would give a greater reason to keep your empire happier than the usual "Just above riot state" that so many of us use.

[The Big Mc]

Well could we trade slaves, make a good slave and use the free slave command to lose one slave per city until there all gone. You could do this and it would be good the code in slic can’t be that hard and for the sprite a few seconds work and its all done. Same with the pop relay but could be very hard to implement both ideas

The event I can think of mass movement of people is the evacuations in London in the second world war.

As well as when England gave up Hong Kong many people left to live in England

[Aqtaca]

Still, i wouldn't implement slaves in 10 000 score added to a city.
I would add few thousands, depending on how many units (and which ones) you defeated.
As for migrations. Well, let's say like this:
Your own people you can't move whenever wherever...
let's say it depends on goverment. If you are a deity-ruler, with absolute authority over life and death you can.
If you are in republic or democracy, you can't.
Also, if a city would be hit by a catastrophy, i would suggest that surviving people from that city start fleeing to other cities. Also, if there is a max city size, people would tend to immigrate themselves. If possible, to a city that is smaller and yet founded by their own city.
And yes, one more thing about earthquakes and catstrophies. I think we should introduce terrain effect here too. You can't have hurricanes in lands near North Pole and you can't have earthquakes in plain regions, with no mountains. Earthquakes happen in regions with so called "chain mountains", where the crashes of continental geo-plates happen.

You still haven't sad anything about my idea of exploting resources beyond your borders with a unit we could borrow from Alpha centauri or a colony borrowed from Civ 3.
I'm all for introducing concepts of religion and nation.

I thank to Sir Ralph for telling me how to add those pictures under username.

Child of Thor, are you a Welshman?