Introducing the Medieval Pack II

[hexagonian]

Wes,

I do not think this will be a problem, but am asking anyhow.

Will it be possible to load maps that have been recently been created in the default CTP2 game (minus the goods) into MedMod2?

The main reason is that I am hoping to be able to use the goods Nordicus implemented and the adjusted terrain settings that you created. If these different terrain settings cause game crashes, then I will probably be holding off on map creation until your mod is released.

[Matte979]

These two are in the const file.


CITY_HEAL_RATE 1.0
NORMAL_HEAL_RATE 0.1

[WesW]

Here is the bulk of an email I sent to Locutus, Gedrin, and some other interested people this evening. This was obviously before I read Wouter's post above. The mod just keeps looking better. The only thing that concerns me is the unit categories limitation I mentioned earlier.

I think that you both know that I want to use the militia and refugee triggers in the Med mod II. I also want to try out a partisan trigger in the mod as well. I want it to share characteristics of both of the aforementioned triggers.
I want the number of Partisans created to be based upon city size, like the refugee trigger. I think 1 Partisan per 6 pop would be about right. I also want the units created to be based upon the technology of the civ., like the militia trigger. To represent the fact that these Partisans would be less powerful than regular army troops, I want them to be the defensive unit of the age prior to the one the civ is currently in. This way, we will not have to create new units and/or sprites for this trigger. The trigger will only activate when the civ either has a certain tech, or is under certain govt.'s, I haven't decided on that yet. Also, the trigger will only activate if the conquest distress in the city is zero. This way, if you re-take a city you just lost, you will not have to fight your own citizens.

I would like for you two to work together on this, if possible, since you both have experience with different aspects of the components of the trigger. Darryl may have done some work on such a trigger already, so I am going to send a copy of this to him as well. I think he will be active in slic work on Ctp2 as well, so I might as well try and get you guys talking regularly. If anyone else wants to comment or get involved, well that's why I am sending you copies as well.

On another topic, Wouter, have you done any work on the trigger to make it cost production to heal units in cities? (The production would come from the public works stockpile.) Having spent the weekend playing the Alexander scenario, which is awesome btw, I really realize how this trigger would revolutionize warfare campaigns in the game. I think this trigger would be a bigger boost to the game than the militia trigger. I mean, this would really separate Ctp from the Sid games in an important way, a way as significant as the public works concept and stacked combat, imo. Right now, I think 75% of the original cost per percent seems about right. I am also going to increase the chance of becoming a veteran to about 30%. This would make Ctp a lot like the Panzer General series in this regard, an aspect of reality in which I think that game did an excellent job emulating.

Btw, Gedrin, did you see my post in the Med mod II thread where there are flags in the DiffDB designed to do what your disseminate trigger does?

Finally, I had a moment of inspiration myself today. (Either that, or I finally saw something that has been staring me in the face for a year now.) I have been wanting for some Improvements' upkeep cost to be based upon city size. Well, the necessary flag has been there all along; the Television's gold-per-citizen flag. I inserted that flag into the Improvements that I wanted- gold, science, production and food, and gave it a negative value (I eliminated the set upkeep cost for these improvements). This is another thing that is going to have a significant effect on the game, and make it much more realistic. (New York City's library system costs the same as that of a small town under the current system, but obviously gives a much greater benefit.) Since the value has to be an integer, I may have to increase the effect of gold improvements to compensate, but I think this new way of figuring costs is going to be a real improvement to the game.

[skorpion59]

Hex,

Yes, you can add any map to the Med Mod provided it only uses default (or Med Mod) items.

[Locutus]

Thanks Matte979 (though a little late since Wes already emailed me all the info I need ).

(BTW, for those who don't know it yet, I'm Wouter )

------------------
"The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents." - Nathaniel Borenstein

[Martock]

Wes, would it be difficult to incorporate the fusion tank from CTP into this game as an early version of the fusion tank. i really did like that sprite and though i like the new fusion tank sprites too, it'd be nice to have them both in there. maybe even adding the old war walker as the genetic ages SAM unit of choice. lastly, i'd like to see the old space marine unit brought back in as a heavier version of the hover infantry (which i like too). i don't know much about modifying the files to do this on my own so i'm hoping you might do just that.

thanks!

[wheathin]

Wes, couple of things:

1. Great idea with the negative values. By combining them with a static upkeep value (positive or negative) you can get an even greater range of maintenance costs. Example: power plants have a high fixed cost - the plant itself, and then a low per-user cost. SoO maybe a 50 gold fixed maint cost, plus 1 gold per citizen?

2. Negative values can be useful in other aspects of the game as well: negative science for slaves (I don't know if CtP2 uses a Pop.txt file like CtP did) to mimic the real-world effects of slavery. Negative food values for glacier/polar/tundra terrains might be a way to have those areas provide less fertile ground for coastal cities, offsetting the productivity of the ubiquitous beach tiles. (Weighted such that a city founded on or near a glacier tile would have to have beach or other productive terrain in 6, 7, or 8 surrounding tiles in order to grow? - I'm talkin' large penalties here...)

3. Have the militia units have increasing vision ranges. In CtP I adjusted the vision range of the Musketeer and later militia units to have 3 or 4 square vision ranges, effectively increasing the visibility radius around my cities as time progressed.

4. Finally, I would be worried about the effect of repair costs on the AI. If it is too high, the AI might end up bleeding production and not realize it. There would certainly be no way for the AI to decide *NOT* to repair a unit because it is running low on production. More than anything, this would necessitate large roduction bonuses for the AI.

5. Related: make sure units are only repaired to the current readiness setting for the unit.

[WesW]

Martock, you will be happy to know that I have replaced the Ctp2 Fusion Tank with the Ctp1 version. I am going to use the Ctp2 version as the Diamond age Mounted Artillery (Ranged) unit. I plan to use the Ctp1 Space Marines as the Diamond Age Marine unit, called Storm Marines.The Ctp1 War Walker will be in the mod as well.

Wheathin, there are settings in the files pretaining to AI public works and so-forth. I feel confident that we can get the AIs adjusted to handle the new trigger properly. This is going to be such a big change to the game, it will be worth whatever effort it takes to implement it. Seriously, if we get this going, it would be worthy of some press in the strategy gaming community, though that stuff doesn't happen with fan-created mods as far as I know. I mean, if this feature was part of the standard game, I think that Activision could, or should, have promoted it as one of the most significant innovations in the game.
With the game as it is now, once you get a tech advantage and start taking cities with your units barely surviving, you can wait one turn, and it's like you suffered no casualties at all. This is completely unrealistic, as we all know.
If you start having to choose between healing hurt units and building other things, or simply not having enough production to immediately heal your units after a large battle, it is going to cause major changes in how the game is played. Think about how this trigger would affect something like the Alexander scenario, or notice how it would affect you the next time you go into conquest mode.

I am in the middle of semester exams this week, so I will have to slow down on the mod for a few days. However, I am through with school next Tuesday, so I hope to really get things going then. I plan to keep tinkering with things, and throw out some polls and such on the forums, to try and get specific ideas on new terrain values and a couple of other things. If someone wanted to throw some things out on their own, that would be great too.

One thing: I wish someone would take some time to look at the diplomacy files which contain the AI replies, and see if they could be altered to fit the situation. Right now, all you get is "offer accepted" and "offer rejected". If someone could customize the messages to reflect why the AI decided as it did, it would address one of the main gripes people are having with the game.
I may start a thread about this on the general forum to see if it can be done, hoping to get one of the Actigrammers to respond. (If someone else wants to start the thread instead, be my guest.)

[Martock]

GREAT!!!! i'm really glad to hear that Wes. one thing though, can we leave in the hovering factor for the CTP2 fusion tanks...that way we don't have to seperate our forces for over shallow water invasions.

[TheBirdMan]

The fusion tanks and shallow waters: Hooverunits should be able to pass shallow waters (I think) - but if not - this can be altered easily in the txt files by the players if wanted.


About help for diplomatic strings:

For the ancient and up to the modern age, try ask St Jon, The Deleted (Sophix), Mobius, Lung and The True Demos(can remember rest of the name) to supply you with sentences/proposals for the text. Just to mention some. They are doing a lot of this stuff in their PBEM games. I simply enjoy reading their comments (and be part of their games).

[WesW]

Yes, I plan to leave the hovering ability in.
I have spent today thinking about units: unit names, abilities, wonder units and so-forth. What I have come up with is really exciting. Below I have pasted a version of the unit build list text which I am using to try and keep track of everything.
Notes: TD- Tom Davies' unit, HT- Harlan Thompson unit, Wonder unit- enabled by building a wonder, Advance unit- enabled by being the first to get an advance, wonder militia unit- second type of militia unit created in all your cities, Alexander & Mag. Samurai- unit is from one of those scenarios.
Special Abilities:
Mongol Horsemen will have both ranged attack and flanking attack.
Ctp1 War Walker will be an all-around offensive and anti-air unit.
AT-Artillery stands for All-Terrain Artillery, and uses the Ctp2 War Walker sprite. This unit will be able to move on any terrain, including Mountains and Undersea, as will Storm Marines. This way, you can have combined-arms assaults on undersea cities.
Hover Infantry will be able to cross shallow water.
I am still thinking up stuff, so feel free to make suggestions, though please write a short passage on why your idea is an improvement over the current setup.

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_SPEARMAN
Unit UNIT_PHALANX
Unit UNIT_LEGION (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_PIKEMEN
Unit UNIT_ARQUEBUSIER (TD, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MUSKETEER (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_MACHINE_GUNNER
Unit UNIT_PLASMATICA (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_LEVIATHON
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_OFFENSE {
Unit UNIT_WARRIOR (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_SWORDSMAN (TD)
Unit UNIT_HOPLITE (CTP1, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_SWORDSMAN (ALEXANDER PHALANX)
Unit UNIT_BERSERKER (TD HUSCARL, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MAN_AT_ARMS (CTP2 WARRIOR)
Unit UNIT_SAMURAI (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MUSKETEER (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_FASCIST
Unit UNIT_HOVER_INFANTRY
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_RANGED {
Unit UNIT_SLINGER (TD)
Unit UNIT_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_LONGBOWMEN (ALEX, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CATAPULT
Unit UNIT_BOMBARD (TD, WONDER MILITIA UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CULVERIN (CTP2 CANNON)
Unit UNIT_CANNON (CTP1 CANNON)
Unit UNIT_ARTILLERY (CTP1 ARTILLERY)
Unit UNIT_AT_ARTILLERY (CTP2 WAR WALKER)
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MOUNTED_RANGED {
Unit UNIT_JAVELINEER (EB ZULU ARCHER)
Unit UNIT_MOUNTED_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_BANDIT_HORSEMEN (ALEX, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HORSE ARCHER (HT)
Unit UNIT_SELF_PROP_GUN (CTP2 ARTILLERY)
Unit UNIT_FUSION_TANK (CTP2 UNIT, RE-NAMED "PLASMA CANNON")

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MOUNTED_FLANKER {
Unit UNIT_ZULU_WARRIOR (EB, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_LIGHT_CAVALRY (TD JAVELIN CAV.)
Unit UNIT_ELEPHANT (ALEXANDER, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_CAVALRY (TD NOBLE CAV.)
Unit UNIT_KNIGHT
Unit UNIT_DRAGOON (CTP1 CAVALRY)
Unit UNIT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_TANK
Unit UNIT_WAR_WALKER (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HOVERTANK (CTP1 FUSION TANK)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MARINE {
Unit UNIT_MARINE
Unit UNIT_STORM_MARINE (CTP1 SPACE MARINES)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_PARATROOPER {
Unit UNIT_PARATROOPER
Unit UNIT_SWARM (CTP1 UNIT)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_ANTI_AIR {
Unit UNIT_MOBILE_SAM

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_NAVAL_ATTACK {
Unit UNIT_TRIREME (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_FIRE_TRIREME (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CARRACK
Unit UNIT_PRIVATEER (HT GALLEON, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE
Unit UNIT_IRONCLAD
Unit UNIT_DESTROYER
Unit UNIT_BATTLESHIP
Unit UNIT_PLASMA_DESTROYER

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_NAVAL_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_LONGSHIP (ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MONITOR (TD IRONCLAD, ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_PT_BOAT (ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_FRIGATE (HT WWII PACK)
Unit UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER (APOLYTON PACK)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SUBMARINES {
Unit UNIT_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_NUCLEAR_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_MOREY_STRIKER
Unit UNIT_KRAKEN
Unit UNIT_DREADNAUGHT

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CATAMARAN
Unit UNIT_COG (TD)
Unit UNIT_TROOP_SHIP
Unit UNIT_CRAWLER

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CARGO_HELICOPTER
Unit UNIT_AIRCRAFT_CARRIER
Unit UNIT_SPACE_PLANE

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_ATTACK {
Unit UNIT_DIVE_BOMBER (HT WWII STUKA)
Unit UNIT_ATTACK_HELICOPTER (APOLYTON PACK)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_FIGHTER
Unit UNIT_INTERCEPTOR
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_BOMBER {
Unit UNIT_BOMBER (HT WWII B17)
Unit UNIT_JET_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited December 06, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited December 08, 2000).]

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Wes, this is looking better and better! I've been concentrating on rebuilding the Tech Tree advances for Ancient-Renaissance eras, but these unit lists are very close to my own notes: Great minds, etc.
Just a few observations/questions...
What is your intended difference between Phalanx and Hoplite in characteristics or strengths? The Hoplite, or heavily-armored spearman, was the historical progression from the simple (shield only) spearman of the ancient Middle East, while the 'pike phalanx' of Alexander and his Successors was the progression from Hoplite. Trouble is, Hoplites originated in Lydia and spread to Greece and the pike phalanx became the 'standard' infantry for almost every civilized state around the Mediterranean except Rome. If you need a Wonder Unit, how about the Legion instead? Trigger it with a Tactics, Training, or similar Wonder or Feat, because the Legion's combination of long training (expensive), heavy armor, and combined arms was never copied successfully by non-Romans.
Instead of a Wonder trigger, how about triggering the Elephant unit by the Elephant 'trade good'? I've broached this idea before, 'way back in the CivIII suggestions over a year ago: now it looks like it can be included in a civ game! Make the Elephant a rare good (Type 2 or 3?) and Elephant unit is obtained only if you have the good in a city radius or as a Trade Good from another civ (Ptolemaic Egypt and Seleucid Syria both traded for war elephants from Africa and India). This should be combined with a specific Advance, such as Dometication or Riding: without a source of elephants you get normal cavalry, with the elephants you get either cavalry or War Elephants - which should also have a pretty high maintenance cost.
Rename the 'Fascist' as a Storm Trooper or some other 'non political' title, and fergawdsakedon't make it unique to any government, but the 'standard' Modern (automatic weapons) infantry attack unit.
The Bombard and the Culverin represent very similar artillery weapons, both in effect and historical time. How about the difference being that the Bombard has an effect only on City Walls, which it negates? This would echo the historical First Effect of large gunpowder artillery, which was to make all existing fortifications obsolete. The Culverin, by contrast, would represent the first 'battlefield' artillery, with a regular Ranged effect.

[Matte979]

One comment for your list.

I made some modifcations in the same direction.

One thing i did was make the musketter of CTP-1 a pre unit for the infantry unit.

And the Ctp-1 Cavalry a pre unit to Ctp-2 cavalry..

Looks nice. The old ctp-1 musketter unit looks older than the ctp-2 infantryman unit.

you put the ctp-1 cavalry after the ctp-2 cavalry.. Me thinks the ctp-1 cavalry looks older than the ctp-2 cavalry. Just a comment.

Great work with the others. Now we just add all these lists to the strategies? Can be decide how many of a certain unit or % atleast? Just to use the priority number seems abit to crude.

By the way increasing the time slices and the slider and the terrain affect changes the game to be alot better. Less money less food, cities alot more diffrent.

One comment about the terrain. I realised that you don't get enough bonus in production from Mountains and Hills. This cities don't seem to produce that much more than cities without hills/mountains. May i suggest my correction. I removed so you can't build mines on grassland and plains. Changed alot of things in the terrain file. Specieally where you can build things and made alot more diffrent bonuses for diffrent locations.

Thats what i love about this game if i don't like it i change it..

I made the base production for hills and mountains a little higher not much 5-10 generaly and removed commerce. Then the mines improvement i doubled. Now i get the feel that these cities are producing faster than those that don't have production.

/Mathias

[Martock]

out of curiousity, when creating these new mods is it possible to put in some of the older sound affects? i do miss hearing my spies saying "they nearly caught me now" and such...

just a thought...

[Harlan]

About the unit list.

How much are you planning to extend the current timeline? Cos I really hate having new unit types come and go before I can even build them and move them to some battle. With such an extended list, you should be careful about that. For that reason, I would suggest cutting it down. You seem to have added every unit you have a good graphic for, and some you don't have a good graphic for. I think less is more (though of course still more than what CTP2 comes with). For instance, why both an Ironclad and a Monitor, except that you can cos you have graphics for both?

Also, with so many units to pick from, I don't see why you should settle for anything less than fully animated units. This includes the units I've made: I'd rather you don't use them (except as a hole plug for a must have spot) since they aren't fully animated.

There is one unit I wish was on your list that isn't though: Chariot. Historically absolutely vital, but I guess not on your list simply cos there isn't a graphic that's even close to it. Could someone make one?