Dutcheese 4

[DON]

Exactly!!

It means one person is always dictating the the course of events instead of a group of individuals.
[This message has been edited by DON (edited February 03, 2000).]

[slamp]

Turn 36 to Jon

I understand why some leaders don't want veto, but I'm afraid of a group of world leader deciding for Mayans people instead of Mayans leaders. But I also understand why veto is not a great idea. That's why I propose a veto with some limits. For example each civilizations could use veto 3 times per 100 turns.
Decisions should be approve by votes. If there is equality, the general secretary's vote counts for 2. We must change general secretary each 10 (20 ?) turns.
I don't know right now if we must elect him or if we must turn from one leader to another leader so each world leader will be general secretary.
What do you think ?

[Jon]

Turn 37 to Frazer

It's Official. The Empire is dead and Ireland has descended into Anarchy.
[This message has been edited by Jon (edited February 04, 2000).]

[Luk]

The Statement of SC

I think that our old proposition is very good. Veto right have all countries when:
1)In the international decisions which is affecting all nations
2)Election of GS

Th country have no right of veto when:
1)the target of the decision is the single Nation. That single Nation have no right of Veto. But every another country has the right of veto. For Example sanctions to English for unlawful occupation of Slav territories. All countries have a right of veto except English.

I think that is very good solution which defends the National Indepedience and do not paralise the organization.

In addition I would like to say that Slav Confederate will not join the org where majority of votes will be a fundament.

Head of SC and cohead of SFU,
Luk Castle

[Duck Hunter]

NEWS OUT OF BERLIN :

I agree we need a veto in some form. So far, I agree most with Luk's idea, in principle. The veto needs to be availble on certain types of votes. The country in question, like Luk said, will not be able to veto. In his example of Norwich. I would argue that the SFU would lose its veto rights as well as English.

I don't think having a certain number of vetos would work.

2. GS.
Another option for the GS would be to set up a rotation. Every "X" turns the GS would change to the next leader in rotation. If we use this system, we would have to develope rules. If a nation is in the middle of a huge debate, it may not be best for that leader to take charge of the GS seat. But on this issue, I also believe an election could work. On a rotation, it may give everyone more of a chance to bring out issues they are concerned with.
If we elect the GS, I'm not sure if I agree with one vet holding up the vote.

Good talks so far. We are getting some good ideas, I hope we can start to finalize some of these ideas in the coming week. Are there other issues we need to be talking about as far as the INC logistics?

President Ed, Germany
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www.home.earthlink.net/~edgar3/
Civ PBEM
didn't get an update in this week, but not too much happened. I should be able to work it in after the weekend and I'll have extended info on the INC talks.

[Sophanthro]

Turn 37 -> Klair

The english proposal concerning veto only concerned the election of GS. The English government strongly backs veto right in dispute resolution, but with both the plaintif and the defendent losing both thier veto right and there voting right, but only on that specific issue. If we were to take Luk's example, neither the English, the Slav, and possibly the French could vote/veto (because the French and Slavs act as one entity when it comes to foreign policy, according to thier own statements)

The reasons for no veto power when voting for GS are as follows,

1. Every nation in the course of history will have some grievance with one of their neighbors. This is not yet the case, but as the amount of unsettled ariable land becomes less and less. The nations continue to expand and conflicts will inevitably rise.

2. England seeks to limit the GS's power to pure reporting of votes, and some mundane administrative tasks. If the GS is called into question his validity can always be verified by the auditor.

3. If no GS can be elected, INC will grind to a standstill, and become a worthless entity.

England is willing to support the cycling leader policy and of course if a conflict arises directly related to the current GS, an auditor will stand in to regulate the dispute.

[This message has been edited by Sophanthro (edited February 05, 2000).]

[Klair]

Sophrano, I didn't receive the turn; could you send it again ?

[Jon]

INC Irish Statement.

As Ireland enters a new age of political freedom the policy statement of the provisional Government is as follows.

1. The rota system of GS appointment is unworkable and undemocratic.

2. The post of GS must be decided by open election and all nations must retain the right of Veto of any candidate.

3. The post must be subject to re-election at periods of no more than 20 Turns.

4. The sitting GS should not be barred from re-election.

5. Once elected the GS should only be removed before their term ends if:
a) They become envolved in a state of War, in which case they should be required to stand down.
b) At any time a motion of 'no confidence' may be brought and if passed by a simple majority, no Veto, they should be dismissed from the post and fresh elections held.

6. The INC should be an organisation for consensus, arbitration and conflict resolution but should in no way act as a means of imposing unwelcome policies on individual nations.

[Duck Hunter]

turn to Don.
--------------------------
www.home.earthlink.net/~edgar3/
Civ PBEM "play-by-play"
updated today. issue 6 Dutcheese Reporter
[This message has been edited by Duck Hunter (edited February 06, 2000).]

[DON]

Won't alliances influence the Veto votes? The ones concerning conflicts with two individual countries. Or will allies be denied their veto power?

Turn to luk
[This message has been edited by DON (edited February 06, 2000).]

[slamp]

Turn to Jon

[Jon]

Turn 38 to Frazer.

[Sophanthro]

Turn 38 ==> Klair

The English government realizes that the no veto measure will never be ratified. So will propose this article

Article 6
1. There will be two positions in INC, the GS, and the Auditor.

2. The position of Auditor will be as follows.

a. He will preside over issues in which the GS is directly involved.

b. He will preside over issues in which the GS is accused of fraudulent vote counting.

c. He will rule as GS, if the GS is voted out thru a no confidence vote. Until a new GS is elected.

d. He will assume the GS position if the GS steps down for personal reasons.

e. He will rule as GS if the current GS is vetoed in a reelection attempt. Until a new GS is elected.

f. A no confidence vote may called against the auditor, but only if a GS is presiding in office.

g. The auditor will be elected every 20 turns with the first election on turn 40.

h. If the Auditor comes up for reelection and GS position is empty, then the vote will be delayed until the position is filled.

i. If an Auditor is voted out thru no confidence, the newly elected Auditor will rule until the term expires: 20 turns from the last regular vote.

3. Ammendments To the position of GS.

a. A no confidence vote may called against the GS, but only if an Auditor is presiding in office.

b. The GS will be elected every 20 turns with the next election on turn 50.

c. If a veto occurs in an election in which the current GS is not vetoed, he will remain in power, until a new GS is elected.

d. If the GS comes up for reelection and auditor position is empty, then the vote will be delayed until the position is filled.

e. If a GS is voted out thru no confidence, the newly elected GS will rule until the term expires: 20 turns from the last regular vote.

[Duck Hunter]

secret ballat may help keep the vote honest and take alliances out of the loop, partially. This will become a problem depending on who can gain from a decision. Especially if we ever come to the point of being a bi-polar world.
Just something to think about before bed.

[Klair]

Turn 38 to Ed