More Tricks and Exploits

[Grandpa Troll]

Grr..I hate Cheaters, I aint saying anyone is in particular, but I am fairly intelligent and have seen "suspect" happening, and been laughed at for questioning them. I feel this way, and this is ONLY my opinion.

If you do anything besides what the game was designed to do, and dont agree to use prior to game starting, ITS A CHEAT!


I have brought up RUSH-BUYING and been laughed at, to quote F G, he says everyone uses it, oh no, I dont, and I think its lame that people have to get ahead. I think its a shame, but as one poster has said, " It's part of the game" but its not an "exploit" its a cheat when evryone doesnt use or doesnt know how to use these "tricks".

Ramping..eh?..thats a new one, because I try and will continue to play game as it was shipped, not shortcutting or "exploiting"

Sad..so sad that folks have to, good or not so good players..

Why dont evryone grow up?..I bet those whom cheat were the same ones whom peered over anothers test and stole answers.

Troll

[Gavrushka]

Troll!!! LOLOLOL - It was like Fadeds Prophecy... the wheel of time turns full circle.....

[Nimrod]

with all the recent allagations of cheating and different trick/cheats surfacing, a game should be started just for cheating Call it somthing like "Cheaters-|2-Us" All tricks from queue unit/building/wonder rush buys to ramping or stacking whatever it is.

[Gavrushka]

good idea...

Now Doom - I want you to read through it... Everyone here knew about ramping - but forgot about it.... Our Switching discussion May 15th 2001 went into .... But we all were suprised and confused when it was originally posted - Simply forgotten - Your ICQ conversation is vague - The accusation was made (I assume based on the saves) so please send them to Blackice he will look for the evidence.

Paul was correct about the game between me and Blackice.... I remember it well - WAY behind on science.... Pots and pots of gold, and then he emptied his bladder all over my civ.

Doom do you want to now drop the subject and carry on with the competition .... If that is an option.... You have so far made baseless unfounded accussations - You have also made some pretty silly comments about me - But since I have once again taken my medication, I see no reason to have you killed at this point..... .... You must understand that if the accussation had been made the other way round I would have taken the same view point for another player - It is absolutely unfair to make very public accussations based on nothing but an opinion - This may only be a game, but there are people behind each and every post, and they have to be treated fairly... Everyone knows when a cheat IS exposed, I am the guy that will not hold back in what I say about them...

The issue here is that I insist that Paul is in competition, and anyone else in the comp is going to play him ... You and Yoda will likewise have to play Paul - But I think that this may be troublesome.... We could prestart the comp with an assumed 1/2 point draw with all games between Yoda Paul and Doom? But all 3 of you would have to agree.

[Dr. Doom1]

Gavrushka, I'm going to try my best to show you in a follow-up message evidence of a pattern of unethical conduct by a particular individual. But I dont know what its going to take to convince you.

Did you spot Paul's posted mistake in claiming that courthouses and capitols are equivalent in production cost? They are not. Check your CTP game chart and you will see that capitols are much more expensive. And if you can't spot a mistake like this, will you be able to spot subtle cheating?

Paul's posted explanation for the 17,000 gold he had accumulated in his tourney test game with yoda--i.e that it must have been a computer glitch--should, according to your posted logic, simply be accepted because there is some noticeable lag in the tourney map program. However anyone who has tested out the tourney map knows full well that, while there is some lag, the program works just fine.

And if you haven't managed to make 17,000 gold magically appear in your own test game(s), why haven't you publically acknowledged this fact?

I'll promise you right here and now that if you can make this miracle come to pass, I will personally put up the prize money for the tournament.

As for competing against Paul in the tournament, I have played Paul many times, and while I have recently questioned his committment to honest play, I doubt very much that there will be any problems. In fact I'm looking forward to playing him. Honest or not he is still an excellent CTP player in his own right.

Dr. Doom

[Dr. Doom1]

I appreciate your concerns Quinn about 'thin' evidence, but please understand I don't live at the Apolyton site. I'm doing the best I can right now in posting.

So far it appears that I've succeeded in educating or at least reminding people about the ramp-up rush-buy swap. And as far as I'm concerned this in itself has made my efforts worthwhile.

The important thing to remember about this trick is that its primary value lies not in producing units, but in speeding up infrastructure development. To those for whom this is a new revelation, my advice is: test it out for yourselves. You will quickly discover its deadly effectiveness.

Judging from the comments posted so far, it appears there will never be unanimous agreement on the definition of cheating. And for some people it appears that no amount of evidence with respect to cheating will ever be enough. Surely however saner heads will recognize that once an agreement has been reached to ban a certain practice, then any deliberate breach of that agreement is cheating.

Dr. Doom

[Dr. Doom1]

To my CTP friends:

Quinn, my recent message concerning the ICQ conversation I had with Paul about his knowledge of ramp-up swapping was intended to address, not so much the issue of a specific type of cheating, but to point out a very small piece of a disturbing pattern of unethical conduct by a particular individual. And while Paul's initial claim of ignorance with respect to ramp-up swapping may seem thin evidence to some, it isn't to anyone who values honesty. Paul understands ramp-up swapping, that is a publically established fact now, but I knew he did at the time I discussed the issue with him via ICQ. There was more to that conversation, and obviously I'm going to have to post some additional excerpts in order to make the point.

The fact is, when Paul was first confronted with the issue of the nearly 17,000 gold he had accumulated during his test game with yoda, he posted a message stating that it must have been a computer glitch. However, anyone who has tested the program knows full well that, while there is some lag, the program works just fine. Paul's explanation in that situation wasn't reasonable, and while that in itself doesn't prove anything, it should set a few alarm bells ringing in the minds of honest people.

Yoda posted a recent message stating that upon returning into a CTP game with Paul, he noticed that Paul was in the process of advancing his units in order to scout out Yoda's position. I've always known Yoda to be honest, and in case anyone misses the point here, the testimony of an honest man is evidence.

After adjourning a recent 4-player game, Paul blurted out to me on ICQ:

Paul: ...by the way as soon as we finished...I took Yoda's cities in well8...

In fact the game Paul was referring to was far from over, and anyone who doubts this can have a copy of the game. Here again is an example of Paul checking out positions during downtime.

Now all of this may seem thin evidence to some, but as far as I'm concerned its enough to make you want to watch your back. And, as I stated in my first memo, it was the accumulating pattern of unethical conduct that prompted me to publically express my concerns about Paul's conduct.

Dr. Doom

[Gavrushka]

Time for the competition.. We draw the line here yes?

Doom I tried to get more prize money - I would be delighted if you want to contribute - I ain't withdrawing the money I put up - I think everyone would be happier with a USD2000 pot as opposed to USD1000.

Now we have all said what we need to - we are aware of ramping (we knew about it a year ago and basically just forgot about it)

[blackice]

I hate to be a mucker but continue Dr. Doom I am listening...that is what this thread is for as long as it stays here.


I remember the game too, I had factories built and battleships and subs. Paulino1 was not ahead on tech I was. Just thought I would toss that in

It would sure help to have the game files, just zip them and post them here as an attachment.

[Dr. Doom1]

To my CTP friends:

Thanks Blackice. My intent from the outset was to post several maps, together with a detailed commentary advising people what, and where, to look for evidence of ramp-up swapping in Paul's cities.

And Gavrushka, don't worry, I hear you. I understand the consequences of what I'm doing. I've created hard feelings, divisiveness, and I've lost someone that I once considered a friend. My tirade will not continue indefinitely.

But you cared enough to organize a CTP tournament, and even to spot prize money. I can't imagine you'd want to see that tournament won through unethical play.

This discussion has for me been arduous, and I've found myself having to explain and defend a few points that I consider to be fairly obvious.

Let me re-state my original plan and objective. Over time I had observed bits of evidence to suggest that Paul is not a particularly ethical CTP player. Therefore, when I saw the 17,000 gold Paul had accumulated during his tourney test-game with yoda, knowing that Paul uses ramp-up swapping, I confronted him privately with my concerns.

However, instead of being forthcoming, Paul denied knowing anything about ramp-up swapping. This combination of circumstances, the massive hoard of stored gold, the feeble excuse, and the obviously feigned ignorance, led me to conclude that if Paul was prepared to cheat in a tourney test-game, then there was good reason to believe he was not prepared to honor the rules in the tournament itself.

However, I realized that the only way I could alert people to the true significance of the massive gold Paul had accumulated in the test-game was to educate people about 1) ramp-up swapping, 2) about the fact that Paul uses this system, and 3) that Paul is an unethical player.

Assuming for the sake of argument that I am correct Gavrushka, am I not doing the right thing here?

Dr. Doom

[Gavrushka]

The problem is I have played Paul, checked the games turn by turn, and he has never ramped - I have seen a game where he had more than 17,000 gold - but that was because he turned science off, and was accumulating 4 figures almost per turn.... You see the way I look at it, people are innocent until proven guilty- and in comp every turn will be checked, so there is no possibility of any form of cheating from Switching passing through the net - there are many moderators for this tournament, and trust me if cheating is proven it will be dealt with summarily so whatever your concerns or arguments are, they bear no relevance to the competition - I know of one player in comp who has cheated against me ( I have saves) but I am letting it pass as I feel kind of amused that someone feels the need to cheat to try and beat me! - Blackice has repeatedly asked for saves from the game in question - I assume you have them - I have also asked if in the particular game rush buy switching was agreed or not.... neither piece of information has been forthcoming.... well you can imagine that is pretty irritating, because what in essence it means is you are interpreting a situation - which no matter how fishy you personally feel it is, is certainly not evidence.

please send saves to Blackice

please answer whether switching was allowed in that game

[david42one]

Ok guys, something just occurred to me and I'd like to hear your thoughts. When I'm about to build a wonder, I'll almost always start building something expensive, like a cathedral. Then, when there is one turn left, I'll switch to a wonder, so that my opponents have less time to compete with me for it. Is this cheating?

[yoda]

Answer

I am staying out of this except to answer any questions someone may have. I have stated my conclusion based on the evidence that I have seen. As to your question about the swap issue, the tournament test map was to be played with tournament rules.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by david42one
Ok guys, something just occurred to me and I'd like to hear your thoughts. When I'm about to build a wonder, I'll almost always start building something expensive, like a cathedral. Then, when there is one turn left, I'll switch to a wonder, so that my opponents have less time to compete with me for it. Is this cheating?

David my friend

I dont see that as a cheat, you are not "rush-buying" something cheaper and gaioning a much more expensive item, you are merely using your production turns to save toward the wonder, I often start a wonder, and switch to another better wonder, at the rate my science works, I can not see purchasing an ancient wonder, because I can see it going obsolete at AOR, and not having much time to gain usefulness out of it!

Peace!

Troll

[Gavrushka]

I think it is common practice to start building something before you have access to the item you want... I often start building colliseums as I wait for banking advance to come up - no problems there.