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  • More Tricks and Exploits

    To my CTP friends:

    The ramp-up swap works like this: Suppose you want to build a large unit, like a destroyer, quickly. If you look at the CTP game chart, you will see that the cheapest entry point into the build-up ramp sequence is the temple or the courthouse, both having an equal production cost. But of course it is necessary to build temples in your cities fairly early, in order to control city riots. This then leaves the courthouse as the only real option as a cheap entry point into the build sequence.

    Now suppose you take even a small city with a couple of turns of production. On one turn you switch to a courthouse (production cost: 270) and rush-buy it for a few hundred gold. Then ON THE SAME TURN you immediately switch to a city-wall (production cost: 405) and rush-buy it for about 350 more gold (eg. under communism). Then switch to a publishing house (production cost: 540), then to a marketplace (production cost: 675), and finally to a colosseum (production cost: 1,035). (You may want to build the colosseum in your queue for one turn in order to dramatically reduce the finishing cost.) If you look again at the CTP game chart you will see that you have now stepped up, for minimal cost, to the production equivalent of a destroyer (production cost: 1,000)--at a devastatingly quick pace.

    The same kind of sequence can be used for quickly constructing factories and mills. In the case of a factory for example (production cost: 2,025), you would ramp up to the city clock (production cost: 1,620) before finally switching to the factory.

    Dr. Doom
    “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
    Or do we?

  • #2
    Thank you to Dr. Doom for bringing this exploit to our attention.
    “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
    Or do we?

    Comment


    • #3
      I would like a zipped copy of the saves from Doom - with an explanation of where he sees things having being underhand - As I understand it the accusation is based on the fact Paulno1 never built Courthouses, I think a little more substance is required than that.... I don't build courthouses, but I certainly ain't switiching or cheating....

      Is the accusation that Paul used a different kind of switching? - Known as ramping? Or is the accusation that Paul used Switching when it had been outlawed in that game.... My personal opinion

      If it is just a different kind of switching.... What a pity the rest of you never thought of it...

      If it is the accussation that Paul Ramped/switched when it had been agreed not to - what do we do if that is the case? What rights do we have over a game between two players who were

      A: Not playing a competition match.
      B: Not playing a rated Apolyton League game.

      Two words could spring to mind.... Witch Hunt.....

      Now heres another Scenario.... The accusation has been made public.... If the Accusation is false, and based on an assumption rather than evidence then what?

      A cheat was exposed in PBEM recently - it took two weeks of Private emailing checking, asking outside advice before going to the Forum Moderator and being given permission to post.... Once given then the post was made... This all seems a little backward...
      He's back after a fashion...

      Comment


      • #4
        Right Gavrushka. But let's listen to what Dr. Doom has to say before we call him a "witch hunter". Paulno1 has never even acknowledged our earlier defense of him in the "CTP Competition" thread. That, obviously, does not constitute guilt... But if someone went out on a limb to defend ME, I would DEFINITELY at least say "thanks for defending my character". (But this could be part of Paul's personality. There is no law against being thankless.)

        Comment


        • #5
          Paul emailed me privately with an explanation... I think he is a bit dumbstruck by the whole situation.
          He's back after a fashion...

          Comment


          • #6
            So this is an accusation, not just a method of cheating?

            Unfortunately, there are problems associated with rush buy and cheat in CtP.

            Easy cheating in CtP is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the Civ 3 MP (don't worry, I won't leave you ).
            Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
            Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
            I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

            Comment


            • #7
              I think most people knew about the concept of ramping using the para whatever build cost jobby - In fact I remember a game over a year ago with some guy Lord something where we had been switching, and he was using it to get cheap wonders... So it amazes me that it was not common knowledge... I also remember old posts here about it being used to buy wonders - in the very first thread started when the cheat was made Public (by Quinns courtesy of Paul) so this is very old news, so old that most of us forgot.... which leaves it as an accusation against one player in a game nothing to do with anyone apart from the two players involved!

              Switching is outlawed at Apolyton - switching is outlawed in the competition , are we right to declare switching is illegal whoever or wherever you may be? I just feel that we may be overstepping our authority here?
              He's back after a fashion...

              Comment


              • #8
                Solver, if you think there won't be bugs in CivIII PTW, I think you will be sadly disappointed -- LMAO (I hope I'm wrong -- I just purchased CivIII). With a game of this complexity there are bound to be geeks who have nothing better to do with their time than to spend morning, noon, and night to figure out a way to cheat the system. It is just their nature!

                Gavrushka -- Right you are about overstepping bounds... BUT if Paulno1 did cheat during a test of the COMP2B scenario, then I don't think we should dismiss this issue as easily as you are implying we should.

                And one more thing -- I, personally, did NOT know about the ramp-up until Yoda published it. I knew about the rush-buy-switch, but I never experimented with variations of it... I never used the switch at all after the Apolyton prohibition of its use.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Problems

                  Whatever Paul has done and will do in games outside of the competition is up to the individual players to decide. There are only a few questions that NEED to be answered with regards to the test game on the pre-made map. I am not accusing Paul of going against the rules. What I am suggesting is that there are some issues that need to be answered. As for the rest of this discussion, that is between Paul, Dr. Doom and anyone else that would like to see this resolved.

                  1) Why did Paul have close to 17000 gold saved up? This is NOT a glitch in the game as I have tested loading up saved games with other people and there is NO such problem.

                  2) Why did Paul suggest it may have been a problem with the pre-made map, trying to dodge the issue? It may be that his memory of the situation was not what it normally is, but I know that Paul is a very smart guy and a very capable player. I can't accept that he would simply has missed this or forgot about it.

                  I have seen the evidence that Dr. Doom has put together. In my opinion, there is no question that Paul deployes the ramp-up strategy in games as indicated by the evidence. The fact that he has denied using this strategy and that at one point even suggested he wasn't aware of it is VERY interesting. However, it still does not prove that Paul was going to or did use this strategy in the pre-made map test game. There are a few situations in the pre-made map that may indicate the use of the ramp-up strategy, but I will let Dr. Doom explain that as it is his efforts here, not mine.

                  yoda

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am now getting confused... We are only talking about the game involving the premade map - That is the one we are interested in yes? The accusation is made against Paul on the comp map yes? Or in other games, quite rightly if it is in other games I agree with Yoda that it is a private matter.. So all that it needs is for the Zipped saves to be sent to Blackice for examination . One further question - Yoda, did you and Paul agree NOT to use Rush Buy Switching in the game in question? Or is the allegation (by Doom not you) that on the comp2b match that Paul used a different kind of switching other than the basic structure unit one? And what is the allegation regarding the gold stored? Is that just curiosity, or is something nefarious suggested there too?

                    Can we try and stick to the original allegation regarding comp2b, and can someone point out the exact allegation... It all seems to be getting a bit Vague.
                    He's back after a fashion...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Issue

                      Gav, the issue here is not about other games, but the test game on the comp2 map that Paul and I had. From what Dr. Doom has told me, the other games are "evidence" of a pattern that suggests there may be the same issues in the comp2 test game. The reason I am asking about the 17000 gold and why the denial from Paul regarding it is simple. The only way a ramp-up strategy works is if you have enough gold to use it. Second, the pattern of denial combined with the evidence in the other games strongly suggests that something is fishy here.

                      Now I understand your concern regarding Paul. There is NO question he is one of the best (and perhaps the best although unproven) CTP player around. It would be sad if he were to not participate in this tournament. However, we have to make sure there is a level playing field for all players. If there is any question about anyone's play, it needs to be addressed.

                      On a more serious note, I know for a fact that there are people out there that are willing to look at the game map in progress during an active game. This can be done using a second computer or during a "crash". It is my greatest hope that nobody in this tournament is willing to sink to those kind of levels. I am not suggesting that ANYONE does use these, I just wanted to show people that there are problems and that not all of them can be solved except by people being honest!

                      yoda

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Rules

                        Yes Gav, we agreed to play the game using the tourney rules as we understood them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Uhmm Firaxis will at least try to fix them. I'm confident there won't be stuff this easy to exploit as in CtP.

                          Good luck with Civ 3 Quinns . I'm enjoying it terifically (but then again, I'm a classic civer).
                          Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                          Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                          I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I tried this trick, I dont see how it greatly benefits? Someone explain it to me.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Benefit

                              Originally posted by faded glory
                              I tried this trick, I dont see how it greatly benefits? Someone explain it to me.
                              The ramp-up/switch trick? Say you wanted a destroyer in a size one city in a hurry. It would cost 8000 gold to just rush buy it. Now, if you rush buy a serious of city improvements, switching as you go, in one turn you can have that same destoryer for a total cost of only 3043. The cost is further reduced significantly if you already have some production in the city from previous turns, or you disband a unit. The cost of any unit or city improvement is reduced parabolically over time. Therefore, by rushing one small item, the rush on the second item after switching is far cheaper, etc... By spending a very small amount of gold, you could save significant turns in completing things like oil refineries or factories or mills simply by using a few rush buys in the middle of your production.

                              Another example, let's say you have 4 turn of production in producing a mill which will take a total of 12 turns to complete. If you look in your production queue for some city improvement that will take 5 or 6 turns, switch, rush buy and then switch back, you've saved a couple of turns at a cost of only a few hundred gold at most! You can repeat this trick as many times as you want. There is an optimum point for spending on rush buys. Any mathamatician could tell you where that point is based on the simple parabolic formula. Don't ask me, I'm not a mathamatician... LOL

                              yoda

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