Ctp Competition Rule Discussion..

[Gavrushka]

I think it is time then..... we need to know whether we are working with modified pollution or not...... No reason we should not start as soon as anyone wants to issue challenges?

Solver we start a thread like the Rankings thread you reckon? Updated for every result?

Has everyone got modified map and Advances mod??

[Dr. Doom1]

Testing.

[Dr. Doom1]

To my CTP friends:

I'm sorry to be the one to have to do this, but with the CTP tournament coming up, its time everyone learned how Paul plays CTP. I am the one who accused Paul of cheating, and I stand by that accusation.

Paul appears to be a good CTP player because he uses a clever series of multiple ramp-up swaps in his city building queues to build his city infrastructure, and even some of his military units, quickly and cheaply. And I can prove that he does, because I have copies of saved games where there is evidence of these ramp-up sequences left in his building queues. And I will send these copies to anyone who is interested in seeing the evidence for themselves. While a ramp-up swap may not in itself be cheating, it certainly is when the pre-established game rules prohibit it.

By now most good CTP players are aware that there are a number of simple rush-buy swaps, such as the granary/settler swap, that can be used to speed up empire growth. The temple/pikeman switch is another well-known swap, that can be used to create instant defense in a new city. And the marketplace/caravan swap can be used to speed up economic growth.

All of these swaps take advantage of two loopholes in the CTP program: 1) Buildings are much cheaper to produce than units. 2) The cost of production per turn drops parabolically--not linearly--over time. The parabolic curve, and the corresponding cost decrease over time, is always the same for all production. So, for every cost vs. time production graph, there is an optimum point where the most number of production turns can be rush-bought for the least amount of gold. Paul is a good accountant, and he knows these things.

However, unlike most CTP players Paul also knows that the basic rush-buy swap trick can be compounded into a series of same-turn swaps in order to create large city infrastructure and military units in an incredibly short period of time. First I'll explain how this can be done, and then I'll prove--to anyone who's interested--that Paul not only uses this trick, but is willing to do so even when the pre-established game rules prohibit it.

All of this cannot be laid out n a few words however, so you'll have to bear with me. I'll post more information in follow-up messages.

Dr. Doom

[Gavrushka]

Wait a second though - Rush buy switching is only outlawed if it is agreed between two players not to use it - all the times I have played Paul he has never switched - So you are accusing him of cheating by using switching better than the rest of you.... that holds no water with me... We play at Apolyton without switching- you play with it - and now your argument is Paul is using it in a different way - well thats the name of the game in my opinion.

I think that Paul should be allowed a response and then drop the matter.... Flaming a Player at Apolyton has a procedure - that is you go to the forum moderator first , and tell him of your intentions... Although my personal opinion is that there is nothing to answer - Unless someone can show me the Rules laid down for switching .

[Gavrushka]

One more thing Doom - Start another thread- this is a competition thread, and as I am sure you will agree this is not the right place for this.

[Paulno1]

1 short thing to say
i think doom was getting confused by what i had on my build queues. Anyone ever pressed F1 and made queues, so you can make a queue of what you want and load it too how ever many cities you want, so you can make all cities build the same thing or a list of the same thing. I have a queue for granery and aquaducts, gran aqua mills and temples, then one with the same things and factories and courthouses and it goes on. I dont allways use these but i use them a lot of the time. It makes it EASIER,it gets anoying if you are builing a bank in a trade city, when you load the queue and it gets changed to an aquaduct.

Hence when some one attacks and you want to change the queues it gets quite anoying, in the 4 player i could not change anything just add infrount, because if you delete something on the queue in a 4 player the 2 other non hosts resync and boy they didnt like that lol.
But due to this my queues can get quite jumbled, easily fixed i guess by just making another queue and over riding everything.
Non of this gives any advantage just makes it easyer and much faster. Do you like going into every city once tehy finish what they are buidling ? I DONT. This seems obvious and many of you will think im retarted just by mentioning it, but some people are much dumber than you think lol

[Dr. Doom1]

testing

[Dr. Doom1]

To my CTP friends:

In my first message I discussed Paul's ramp-up swap procedure for creating large city infrastructure and military units in CTP games. Now I want to be more specific about how the ramp-up swap is done.

Yoda referred to the swap procedure a few days ago in a message he posted (05/29). In that message he mentioned that he had heard about the ramp-up swap "just yesterday." He is correct about that--because he heard about it from me. and I discovered it after examining some of Paul's city build queues in copies of old saved games.

More about this in a follow-up message.

Dr. Doom

[Dr. Doom1]

To my CTP friends:

The ramp-up swap works like this: Suppose you want to build a large unit, like a destroyer, quickly. If you look at the CTP game chart, you will see that the cheapest entry point into the build-up ramp sequence is the temple or the courthouse, both having an equal production cost. But of course it is necessary to build temples in your cities fairly early, in order to control city riots. This then leaves the courthouse as the only real option as a cheap entry point into the build sequence.

Now suppose you take even a small city with a couple of turns of production. On one turn you switch to a courthouse (production cost: 270) and rush-buy it for a few hundred gold. Then ON THE SAME TURN you immediately switch to a city-wall (production cost: 405) and rush-buy it for about 350 more gold (eg. under communism). Then switch to a publishing house (production cost: 540), then to a marketplace (production cost: 675), and finally to a colosseum (production cost: 1,035). (You may want to build the colosseum in your queue for one turn in order to dramatically reduce the finishing cost.) If you look again at the CTP game chart you will see that you have now stepped up, for minimal cost, to the production equivalent of a destroyer (production cost: 1,000)--at a devastatingly quick pace.

The same kind of sequence can be used for quickly constructing factories and mills. In the case of a factory for example (production cost: 2,025), you would ramp up to the city clock (production cost: 1,620) before finally switching to the factory.

Isn't that right Paul?

Dr. Doom

[Dr. Doom1]

One more thing Gavrushka, before I continue. The point here is that the upcoming CTP tourney currently has a no rush-swapping rule. If that rule is changed then there is not as much to be concerned about.

Nevertheless, I want everyone to understand how this--and other CTP tricks--work.

Paul has denied using the kind of rush-swapping I am referring to. And I'm telling you he uses it, and I can prove it.

You say Paul has never used it against you? You mean you've actually gone in to old saved games and checked every city on every turn? Or maybe you are just taking his word for this.

I've played against Paul plenty Gavrushka. And I dare say I'm also a better CTP player than you. (sorry)

Dr. Doom

[Gavrushka]

Doom - I think you miss my point... I don't give a damn what has happened in the past - A year ago the community split in half.... The half that agreed to play none rush-buy switching came to apolyton - The half that didn't watched the death-throws of Gameleague play out -

This competition is if you buy it you build it- anything outside the competition - anything outside Apolyton has no place here - If Paul had - so what - I certainly don't care.... As regards ability at CTP how that figures into the equation other than bragging rights I know not. The rush buy conversation is over... finished... All we need to do now is get the competition started ... Solver is away for a few days, then we will start a new thread with the entry list and a concise rule guide....

I am the guy writing the cheques here - nothing more - But you are tearing the competition to pieces with accusations which are totally irrelevent - Comments about gameplay must be limited to actual matches played out within the competition.

[quinns]

Gavrushka is right about players agreeing to use the rush-buy-switch trick/cheat BEFORE the game begins. However, we have already said many, many times that the rush-buy-switch (or any "ramp up" derivation thereof) is illegal within Apolyton CTP League play. The use of this trick in "testing" of the Apolyton CTP League map and scenario, to me, constitutes a willingness to use this prohibited technique during competition. If Dr. Doom can prove that Paulno1 used this technique AFTER agreeing not to use it, or that Paulno1 used this technique during the testing of the COMP2B scenario, then I believe there is a case against Paulno1. If Dr.Doom1 cannot prove this, then I agree with Gavrushka about the relevance of this accusation. If Dr. Doom1 can prove either of the above cases, then we should look at the evidence.

Quinns

[blackice]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51583

I took the liberty of starting a new thread on this Dr. Doom. We can continue this over there.

As a moderator of the tourney I agree with Quinns on the "we need this examined".

Dr. Doom I have requested the game saves and a detailed reconstruction of this situation. I hope you can provide it?

Since this tourney is for cash I think it prudent to examine all tricks and exploits.

Thanks for the info...

[Gavrushka]

Quinns, Blackice - I don't know - even if it was proven - All that is being suggested is that Paul found a way to use Rush-Buy Switching that the others never thought of.... Remember these guys play all the time with switching... and whatever is proven is nothing to do with Apolyton or the comp - The only link made is that Doom has chosen to post here - Even if it is on the pre - made map - I'm just tired of this whole switching mess.... We don't use it in the comp - surely we cannot claim jurisdiction over a game between two guys who play CTP for no other reason than Doom is pointing fingers?

I am glad of the new thread Blackice, lets see it unravel...

[yoda]

Rules

Gav/Solver, can one of you guys post the official rules? Is it:
- no wonders (except nanite defuser and wormhole sensor)
- 100 gold, 1 settler
- pre-made map
- Pollution on but with modifications
- diety/no barbs
- standard starting 3 tech
- no piracy
- pillaging is ok
- no nukes
- no rush buy tricks of any kind
- no rush PW tricks
- saved games by both players on every turn with review by the losing player with contested games being sent to the judges.

Thanks,

yoda