Ctp Competition Rule Discussion..

[quinns]

As an alternative, I know the attached files work (through at least Renaissance -- e.g. Ag Rev) without doing any of the above adjustments to your advances.txt file. Just place the two files in your scen000x (e.g. scen0001) folder as is, and start up CTP. It is the comp3 map/scenario with corrections to goods around lake islands, no extra river, and 1 settler.

[Swissy]

Sorry Quinns, it doesn't work. Ran into the same tech wall. Did you test this in a MP game?

[Patryn]

Man, discussions, discussions, and more discussions..... I suppose it is for the best, but I leave in one week!!! Oh well, I guess I will have to play my first league game when I get back.

About the pollution problems.... Is pollution tied directly to the amount of production you have, large population, or large population made worse by factories and the like? We should leave in disasters though, as an ace in the hole.(or should I say joker?)

[quinns]

Originally posted by Swissy
Sorry Quinns, it doesn't work. Ran into the same tech wall. Did you test this in a MP game?

No, I just tested it in Hot Seat. It worked fine there -- no tech wall. Did you test in in hot seat or internet MP?

[Swissy]

Originally posted by quinns


No, I just tested it in Hot Seat. It worked fine there -- no tech wall. Did you test in in hot seat or internet MP?

I tested it in an internet game.

[yoda]

Play Testing

Ok, Paul and I have tested the map up to 1190ad so far (still playing). We are closing in on nukes, science is somewhere around 5000 in communism and we finally met just 10 turns ago (approximately).

Tech problem is solved using the advance.txt file. However, as I mentioned before, this map is a good one but perhaps most players will find it difficult. It heavily favours an expansion strategy. Pollution on is still, in my opinion, a big, BIG mistake.

Personally, I favour a map similar to the one I designed. Jbytheway's map is excellent, but it almost completely removes any attempt at a naval game. Because tech moves so quickly, only hit and run tactics will most likely be successful against anyone who has any kind of mobile defense. Exception is with nukes of course. Keep nukes in the game without any modifying rules and he who nukes first/hardest wins. Because there is so much land and it's so close in areas, air power will probably totally rule without even requiring aircraft carriers.

One more thing: even with trying to play as fast as possible, turns will become very, very long from this point on (probably 40 minutes). I hope everyone is prepared for such a long game.

[Swissy]

Good report Yoda. What you have posted is exactly what I expected. When I first looked at the map I figured naval units are useless until destroyers, you will not be able to even make effective raids into emeny territory until tanks (even then the mountain ranges hamper tank raids), and the games will not be resolved until space planes. My question is why you even bothered to make contact. Hide behind a line of listening posts/sonar bouys and go pedal to the metal in science to get to space planes, and victory. Once you get to nukes nobody can touch you except through space.

Perhaps a smaller map may be in order. I would like to see one that supports a game that will take around 6-8 hours to complete, not 6-8 hours to get to contact.

[J Bytheway]

Did I really create such a monster?..

[quinns]

Glad to see the internet play is working with the advances.txt modification. I understand now... thanks Swissy -- i.e. old comp2 works fine in hot-seat and single-player but does not work in internet play without the advances.txt modification. ( I think somebody mentioned that already... I should read better!)

In any case, I tend to favor Yoda's and Swissy's conclusion about a "smaller map". Gavrushka and I played on the Comp2b map until about 1000 b.c. before concluding that the tech- wall was definitely there. But even then turns were already slowing down with many cities. Why not a "small" map? I know many players believe this favors the non-expansionist... but does it really? You just have do expand with a more militaristic posture. When you run out of room, you can expand into space -- if it goes that far. But, yes, much quicker games. 40 minutes per turn would be unreasonable -- games between equal players may take an eternity to complete. You were right.

I now vote for using a regular or small, earth-shaped map with "three-fourths" water, and "medium to low" goods settings. J's map can definitely still be used by all of us... just not in league play. What do you all think about that?

[yoda]

new map

A smaller map is NOT the answer. On a regular size map, chances are very high that it will simply become a SOL slug fest. I've seen it too many times. There becomes no possibility of getting past early modern age. No, the length of time to play is not the question. After all, this is a world championship tournament. Time is not really the issue.

My vote is to go with jbytheway's map for the first round of games and then perhaps come up with a tougher map for the next round of games. That way we can start on a very playable map (long and very lush for production/science) and have time (months?) to come up with a new map for round two.

However, I vote for no pollution, no piracy. Nukes are optional.

For a new map, I suggest something similar to what I created. People need to be far enough apart so that the science option still exists. Small enough amount of land for a home world that they can't just sit on their home rock and watch the world go by. Islands in the middle that will have to be fought over to win key goods and military positioning. And goods scarce enough (but still enough if you know what I mean) that the only way to really get the trade/science going is to have those key goods.

[J Bytheway]

What's a round? Are you planning multiple games between each pair of players?

[yoda]

tournament

Originally posted by J Bytheway
What's a round? Are you planning multiple games between each pair of players?

I'm not sure just how this was to be organized, but I thought the idea was to play home and away against each person. Perhaps a good test would be to play everyone once on this map and once on a different map. Then compile the results and play on a third map for ties/finals. However, that's up to solver and gavrushka.

[yoda]

Game length

I suspect the game will take 8 to 12 hours to complete and longer if the players are evenly matched. If the players are slow, add 50% or more to that time. The comment I made early about 40 minute turns is only because there was about to be conflict. I had just invaded Paul (small hit and run force), but whenever the military is involved, turns take much longer.

I want to point this out one more time. For nukes, I suspect a rule will have to be made to either not allow them to be used to attack a city or just get rid of them altogether.

[Patryn]

Hey, gigantic map that takes forever, so that you can build an empire in peace until early modern, then slug it out into late modern, genetic............. sounds like my kind of game. I am all for it.

[Swissy]

Originally posted by Patryn
Hey, gigantic map that takes forever, so that you can build an empire in peace until early modern, then slug it out into late modern, genetic............. sounds like my kind of game. I am all for it.

Actually, this map lends itself to a strategy of pushing to space planes. First one there wins. Building for sea invasion is a waste. The production is better spent on building a vision line to guard against your opponent. Then jump on anything that gets close, I expect subs will be key defenders. Once you get space planes your opponent will be defenseless, or they will be bogged down in guarding the homefront.

As far as limits on nukes. I am getting tired of every single gripe being tied to an aspect of the game that does not benefit the production kings. No pirating so you have an easy tech push to Industrial Rev, no pollution so you can keep your cities at 1000 production plus without adverse effects, and no nukes use on cities so your opponent can't come down from space and wipe out your production core in one turn (It can be done, I did it in Monkey1 pbem game). If you want a real test; 1 settler, 100 gold, no wonders, everything else ON. The game as it is now is a plain old production fest, neglecting many of the other aspects of the game.