Ctp Pbem Rankings 12th April 2002

[quinns]

Originally posted by blackice
That is a no for creating a pro's and cons thread for voting Quinn? BTW I hope you don't quit again because some disagree with you again.

I tried to be cordial... but no. You have to resort to this crap. "Quit AGAIN!" That is good. Look at all my past posts where 50% of the people disagreed with me on the original discussion of ratings. I did not quit. I quit posting here after September 11, 2001, because this PBEM stuff didn't matter much to me back then. "Quinns is a quitter because one person disagrees." Good one Ice . Your comments, and yours alone, always piss me off. Why is that? "Oh my Quinns, don't take it so personal!! : "

Insults edited out by Solver. Sorry Quinns, I had to .

[Solver]

Quinns, I regret that I have to edit the post... I do not want any kind of insults here, please. Keep this in emails and private messages.

And since I lack a better picture thus far (don't worry, I'll make new ones ):

[TheBirdMan]

I'm way too late (again).

Just call me Tweety or Birdie as you like.

I still remember the famous Wes Whittaker called me Woodstock - just because I had comments for many aspects in his MEDMOD (hey, I am mentioned in 2 of his readme-files - and not for anything bad).

[Gavrushka]

You know, I remember the enthusiam when the new rating thread would go up.... So many people would post, good natured Bravado would ensue... and no one really thought about how the ratings were arrived at... So I think that when the new chart goes up, there will be a tremedous cheer... And by the way, Troll's system is simple and workable.... but it does not really matter... HOWEVER it would be fun if troll were to implement his system when results come in, and Quinns his system , and I wonder how different the place orders would really be..

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Gavrushka
You know, I remember the enthusiam when the new rating thread would go up.... So many people would post, good natured Bravado would ensue... and no one really thought about how the ratings were arrived at... So I think that when the new chart goes up, there will be a tremedous cheer... And by the way, Troll's system is simple and workable.... but it does not really matter... HOWEVER it would be fun if troll were to implement his system when results come in, and Quinns his system , and I wonder how different the place orders would really be..

You know, its kinda like some folks here need a real long-drawn out system, in order for it to be acceptable, we need a Calculus major or a Trigonometry Major or an Einstein. I really feel if it was not such an in depth Points system, we wouldn't have such a fiasco, so many fellow CTP'ers, at each others throat and for what..FOR WHAT??..so whomever can come up with the most IN DEPTH, un-followable point sytem, open to debate, open to flaws in the system, this so called "KLAIR " issue, would not be an issue. Basically you win you get "X" points, 2nd "X" points, why complicate things, with people dropping out, simply DO NOT AWARD THEM POINTS!
Very simple, dont like the land, quit, get no points, HOWEVER, check this out, you have vested interest if you stay or if you go. If you are three players, and two decide, nah, bad land or I dont like this or that, they quit, recieve nothing. The winner gets the "pot" much like in Poker, either stay to end or sacrifice what you vested, In Cards, if you play 7 card stud, and drop out after say 4 cards, you put in say 20 dollars, get a cheesey hand, you do not get to just reach in the pot and say, NO, ill invest in another hand. You lose the money and wait until next hand. The last man in may not even have to recieve all 7 cards, if other players say dont anti up, each round, then you do, why, your the winner,

How hard is this system to accept?

Fair, I mean, I would not dare to set down at Las Vegas and play $25,000 per hand, but back in the day, i would play for $1.00-$5.00 and keep on trucking. Why should I be forced to play someone like Paul, whom is a super player, when i could play someone on my own level, and still be rewarded for my winning. Now, if a person says it isnt fair to not play the very best, how fair is it to whom?
To the Best..who can walk over you or fair to you whom needs to not be playing and gettings whooped by 50 turns, because the other player knows all the tricks and shortcuts to being a successful Diety player?

Gav..hope this system gets at least a small look over for consideration, have a great day!

Troll

[blackice]

Thats the whole idea Troll.

Quinn sorry my mistake you quit and came back in the same thread sorry about that.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23497&perpage=10&pagenumber=2

Relax it's only a game don't take it so personal. I speak out about the flaws in your based on ELO differential system so what fix them I will sign up. I then asked if you would assist me on a pro's and cons thread so people could decide you decline? After that I was trying to convey the point you do not have to quit because we all know how emotional and personal you take everything. Obviously.

posted by Quinns: Always appreciate your comments on the rating system... though, they are usually negative. Criticism makes for a stronger system.

That comment was to me same thread. hummm

"Quinns is a quitter because one person disagrees."

Actually I said many and they did....

Troll your system will get consideration Solver and I, I think? I will be posting the unbias pro's and con's of each system so people can vote. Quinn dropped out it would have been great to have his input after all it is a copy of the basic ELO system and he knows that system.

It has done wonders for Kasparov...he too plays very few games picks his opponents and better still approves the rules. Klair would love him er maybe she already knew?

I am sorry to see so many people disapointed with the information posted here. It was to be a mature conversation of ranking systems. Gav was, is right lets just post the winnings and move on. Why anyone needs to go to another system is beyond me?

So keep it clean Quinn try to do what is the best interest of the league here. And for the 50th time I think? Nothing personal stop acting like it is please.

Thanks

[quinns]

The final authority on all things speaks again... uggh... It will never end.

[blackice]

I not only apologized but also posted the thread so people could see you were right about the quitting.

What do need now Quinn?

It will never end?

You tell me your the one on the spam fest...

So keep it clean Quinn try to do what is the best interest of the league here. And for the 50th time I think? Nothing personal stop acting like it is please.

Thank you

Nothing personal for the 51st

[Solver]

Guys - calm down all, I fear when I come back, I'm going to see a huge war .

Pete, I think that by the time I return enough ideas, pros and cons will be posted, so I can decide.

[blackice]

I am calm

Ok I can give it a whirl the fear for me is I see not much positive about the old system. Even objectively I can only come up with so much. I was hoping someone who liked the old system could toss in some pro's and cons for it.

I will get one going and send it to you for a read how's that?

[Solver]

Get it going, sure, but I'll probably not be having much Net access over the week, and what I have, I'll spend on the most pressing issues .

You guys will have to wait for my return to have the things finalized.

[TheBirdMan]

I am calm

.

Else we just have to wait for the canadian winter - that should be able to do the job for us .

[J Bytheway]

Although I've been largely converted to the new system I might be able to think of something good about the old one that you missed.

[blackice]

Birdy

Thanks J. could you do that and email it to me?

[J Bytheway]

One more thing that I think is relevant, and has been niggling me for a while:
Blackice, you keep saying that the Klair factor is not an issue in this system, but I've never seen your reason for thinking that. I've been checking, and it looks to me like that's just not true. For example:

5 players (A, B, C, D, E) join the rankings, are given 21 points apiece and begin a game against one another, but don't play in any other games. Player A wins every ranking (the order of the other players doesn't matter).

If a(n) is A's score after n rankings, then a(0) = 21 and the pot is always 10.5 so a(n+1) = 0.9a(n) + 4.305.

Solving in the usual way we get:

a(n) = 43.05 - 22.05(0.9^n)

so as n->infinity a(n)->43.05, and does so geometrically, so it won't take long. For example A's score will pass Lungs score as listed in this thread of 30.835 when:

43.05 - 22.05(0.9^n) = 30.835
12.215 = 22.05(.9^n)
0.5540 = .9^n
ln(0.5540) = n*ln(.9)
-0.5906 = -0.1054n
n = 5.606

i.e. after just 6 rankings - probably on turn 79!

This will of course drop the average score of the other players quite fast, and so if they play in other games then their scores are likely to go up (on average) and thus make the situation worse.

Klair syndrome is harder to remove than that, methinks.