Ctp Pbem Rankings 12th April 2002

[blackice]

Exactly my point of view mine too!

[blackice]

Quinn said : I think we have discussed this in great length (ad nauseam ). I'm not sure if everyone else is really interested in which system we use, as long as it is updated regularly. Maybe we should have our vote now?

Blackice said: I am game to set up the vote but we need to refine the pro's and cons of both system in an easy to read format. plain simple and to the point. Would you like to work on that with me?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47344&perpage=10&pagenumber=28

Now you are talking about chess again (ad nauseam ). Can we work together on this and create a pro and cons post it and let the people vote now?

[jpww]

[Grandpa Troll]

I see now why I cannot compete at the level some folks are!

You guys, and this is meant as no flagrant attacks upon anybody But My Goodness, all you Mathematecians and your formulas, why not just have it something like this:

Decide upon the what will decide winner (i.e. the Power Graph doesnt allways show the TOP player, only the one who has ammassed the most total points, maybe built a ton of cities, but not a great military, or even built a few key wonders..ect.)

OK

First Place-45 Points
Second Place-30 Points
Third Place-15 Points
Fourth Place-10 Points
Fifth-if there is one-0- Points

This is a 100 Point Value assigned to everygame. Divide it up accordingly. If a player drops, let the winner pick up the chips, kinda like in Poker, if someone finds an extra bit of cash, unclaimed by anyone on a particular hand, in the pot in goes!

This way no one loses points for playing a lesser player, If you can beat a great player fine, if not, play against someone more your own level.
I know, kinda like Boxing, "Paper Champions"..but, what we have here now, is..a..Failure-2-communicate I cant compete against the top players, but I have a ton of fun against someone my level. You dont put a Little Leaguer against a Babe Ruth Leaguer, or even a college DivII against an MLB Allstar, keep the playing fields even as possible.

So, lets stop Chess Chat, stop Chest Thumping, Stop Scrutinizing and Start Playing!

Ok, that whole scoring system took me about 3 minutes to put on paper.

Now, Im off to play and have some fun!!..Anybody joining me??

Troll

[blackice]

I wish I had of said that hey i did say some of that

And you want to here something real funny?
That is almost how the new system works

[Kralj Matjaz]

Blackice, I don't know what do you do for living, but better switch to advertising. I guarantee you great future there.

[Kralj Matjaz]

NEW PERFECT SYSTEM

Seems we can presume that pure skill has nothing to do in CtP as game is under major influence of luck, bad starting position, luck, diplomacy, luck, terrain, luck, goods, luck, barbarians and luck.

Obviously "old" system is totally inadequate here because it promote only skill of player.
"New" system is not adequate either because skill is also involved, beside of playing a lot.

I believe I found out perfect CtP system. It's certain winner.

It is extremely straight and simple. Only most basic mathematical skill is required to understand AND use it. It is absolute win/win.

Description:
All players receive number of points equal number of players. That's all.

PLAYERS
2..1ST..2pts..2nd..2pts
3..1ST..3pts..2nd..3pts..3rd..3pts
4..1ST..4pts..2nd..4pts..3rd..4pts..4th..4pts
5..1ST..5pts..2nd..5pts..3rd..5pts..4th..5pts..5th ..5pts
6..1ST..6pts..2nd..6pts..3rd..6pts..4th..6pts..5th ..6pts..6th..6pts
7..1ST..7pts..2nd..7pts..3rd..7pts..4th..7pts..5th ..7pts..6th..7pts..7th..7pts
8..1ST..8pts..2nd..8pts..3rd..8pts..4th..8pts..5th ..8pts..6th..8pts..7th..8pts..8th..8pts

As you can all see, it's win for everybody!

System is absolutely unbiased and fair. Most important is, it's promotion of playing a lot. And I mean a LOT.
Again win/win situation.

It is definitely better than any or both previous systems.

Only question is:
Do we need ladder at all?

[jpww]

Whoever said Kralj Matjaz didn't have a sense of humor

Troll has elucidated the issue somehow: CTP is like a card game which depends on luck, skill, luck and luck! However, the pleasant fact about it is that by setting a fixed amount of points to be distributed among the players every nth turn, no one stakes anything but instead picks up a share of the pot. Is this not a win-win situation or what?
Furthermore, a player may only be rated in up to 3 or 4(subject to debate but it has to be constant) games of his choice. Now a player's rating is calculated based on his previous rating and the total of points collected up to a certain dateline... I could go on and on about the great and positive things about this system, but I'd rather stop here due to time constraints. One last thing. Allow me to sum up all I've said in a few words : This system's sheer nonsense and it won't work!

[Solver]

Very interesting system, Kralj . Much different from those we used before, but really requires no complex maths to do.

[blackice]

Kralj I am in advertising have been for many years.

The logic I put forth in my arguements have nothing to do with advertising. It's called research, experience, a desire to see even the little guy have fun in CTP and dedication to PBEM, this Apolyton site and the game of CTP. You may have missed that though.

So now that the serious conversations have subsided.

Quinn what about my offer to work with me on putting together a pro's and cons thread. Clean simple so people can vote? What about you Solver?

[Solver]

I like the idea, but I still have to dig into all these systems proposed, a bit too much info for me . Also, I am now out of the town for a week or so, and I fear the thing might have to wait for my return.

[blackice]

I should finish up dating the rankings in the mean time.
I can have them posted tonight or first thing A.M.
It appears the natives are getting restless

It is not as if we have to change the ranking system over night either beside it will take longer.

According to Quinn, the whole thing would have to start from scratch in order for the old system to be implimented.

In the mean time let's just get it going shall we?

[quinns]

Originally posted by Kralj Matjaz
NEW PERFECT SYSTEM

Seems we can presume that pure skill has nothing to do in CtP as game is under major influence of luck, bad starting position, luck, diplomacy, luck, terrain, luck, goods, luck, barbarians and luck.

Obviously "old" system is totally inadequate here because it promote only skill of player.
"New" system is not adequate either because skill is also involved, beside of playing a lot.

I believe I found out perfect CtP system. It's certain winner.

It is extremely straight and simple. Only most basic mathematical skill is required to understand AND use it. It is absolute win/win.

Description:
All players receive number of points equal number of players. That's all.

PLAYERS
2..1ST..2pts..2nd..2pts
3..1ST..3pts..2nd..3pts..3rd..3pts
4..1ST..4pts..2nd..4pts..3rd..4pts..4th..4pts
5..1ST..5pts..2nd..5pts..3rd..5pts..4th..5pts..5th ..5pts
6..1ST..6pts..2nd..6pts..3rd..6pts..4th..6pts..5th ..6pts..6th..6pts
7..1ST..7pts..2nd..7pts..3rd..7pts..4th..7pts..5th ..7pts..6th..7pts..7th..7pts
8..1ST..8pts..2nd..8pts..3rd..8pts..4th..8pts..5th ..8pts..6th..8pts..7th..8pts..8th..8pts

As you can all see, it's win for everybody!

System is absolutely unbiased and fair. Most important is, it's promotion of playing a lot. And I mean a LOT.
Again win/win situation.

It is definitely better than any or both previous systems.

Only question is:
Do we need ladder at all?

I vote for Kralj's system!

Blackice, I have said all that I have to on the subject of ratings theory. If the people want to read about it, they can see the previous posts. I am done with the discussion -- (plenty to read above). Let them vote if they wish. Whatever system is adapted (if any) is fine with me.

[blackice]

That is a no for creating a pro's and cons thread for voting Quinn? BTW I hope you don't quit again because some disagree with you again. That would be a shame...You have lots of good input and there is lots of fun to be had here enjoy it.

Well Solver I can start while you are on your holidays with a basic pro and con thread. I think there is too much to read here IMHO. The idea now is to break it down to simple pro's and con's so people can quickly read the differences and make a vote. Seems like the logical next step.

BTW quinn it's kind of spaming to copy and paste Kralj entire silly post don't you think? It was three comments above

http://www.sportstaronnet.com/tss2513/25130620.htm

You will note Kasparov "plays very few tournaments in a year yet some still concider him #1." also:

"The Linares format is decided by the organisers only after consulting him." and

" he gains the most Elo, a rating system of FIDE invented by Dr. Arpad Elo."

In other words many think there are better chess players but Kasparov knows how to manipulate the current systems like ELO to his advantage.

Enough of chess ranking systems they simply produce too many inflated egos

[Solver]

Well Pete, would be cool if you did it . I expect that when I'm back, I'll be able to print that new thread, see what are people saying, rewrite my program for new system, and get under way.