Trick or Cheat?

[Paulno1]

Please tell me saddam how do i cheat ?
You have never played me and most people who play at the moment havent played me either, so how do you know i cheat? Its amusing though how you thrash someone and subsequently they call you a cheater lol.
I wouldnt call that trick the secret to how i play though, thats a little bit of an exageration. I can always make it so i preduce faster than everyone else generally. So i preduce ships faster than the other player.
More mines and bigger cities and more cities. The key to winning is to have more infrastructure than the other player, but what to I know. As well as spending your money wisely, having graneries is essential cant get big enough cities otherwise. A city should never reach a city size of 2 without one. But hat do i know lol play me and you will see, find a partner and play me 2 on 1, i wont even use the trick.

[Swissy]

It would be interesting to find out how Paul cheats. As I understand the SLIC game engine is dependent upon text files in the game database. And if the database of the host is not the same as the other player, you get the "Database out of synch" error message and cannot join the game. If the host tries to use a pre-made made map you get the "Scenario not found" error message, unless all the players have the same map. So it is not so much cheating than playing the game and examining the text files to get a deeper understanding of the game mechanics. I have more important thing to do than disect a game to find evey little or big advantage that is built into the game system.

[MOBIUS]

quote: Originally posted by quinns on 05-18-2001 12:46 PM Yes, PaulNo1 is correct. He was the first one to tell me about the "bug" after I asked him what his "secret" was. He was very open about it. Even though I didn't understand him at first. In a game following his telling me about it, PaulNo1, and another co-player, thought that was funny, (that I didn't understand how to use the bug immeditately, "lol"), and both proceeded to whoop my hiney --- bad. Congratulations Paul and co-player. [I forgot who the other player was]. Because of this, I don't think PaulNo1 is a cheater, (a little arrogant, maybe, but not a cheater). He, obviously, wasn't keeping this "secret" to himself.

Correct me if I'm wrong Quinns, you had to ask him!!?

Blackice summarises it neatly with the GameLeague rules - taking advantage of BUGS is CHEATING!

As for 'assuming' everyone knows - thats just a euphemism for 'taking advantage for anyone who does not know'...

Plus the inherent arrogance, implying people must be stupid for not knowing about the bug - some of us prefer to play within the intended rules framework thanks!

As for slow starts - that's why people have produced accelerated start mods, which although far from perfect at least aren't trying to take advantage of unintended side effects!

To suggest the bug was intentional is frankly preposterous and I can't believe some of the people here are trying to add credibility to what is CHEATING!

I doubt very much someone would have volunteered that information to me before starting a game - if I were Blackice I would be severely pissed off for wasting my time and those saved files would be under the noses of the admins before you could say "cheating bastards!"

I spend too much of my time on this game without having to worry about cheats!

I agree with St Jon that there are 'grey areas' such as the switching production resources in 'mid flow', however that's the way the game has been designed and it is a good way to hide the fact that you're building a wonder (start with big prod items like hospitals or cathedrals b4 switching)...

I'm sorry to have to say this, but I'm glad the 'bug proponents' have been owning up - because then I'll know who to avoid playing against in the future!



[This message has been edited by MOBIUS (edited May 18, 2001).]

[quinns]

Yes, PaulNo1 is correct. He was the first one to tell me about the "bug" after I asked him what his "secret" was. He was very open about it. Even though I didn't understand him at first. In a game following his telling me about it, PaulNo1, and another co-player, thought that was funny, (that I didn't understand how to use the bug immeditately, "lol"), and both proceeded to whoop my hiney --- bad. Congratulations Paul and co-player. [I forgot who the other player was].

Because of this, I don't think PaulNo1 is a cheater, (a little arrogant, maybe, but not a cheater). He, obviously, wasn't keeping this "secret" to himself.

The only way to deal with cheaters, successfully, is the same way I've dealt with them in any sport or game I've ever played -- BLACKBALL. This is very harsh treatment, but sometimes it is the only way. Blackball tactics do not have to relate to just cheating. If someone is an a**hole, then this is the only solution. It doesn't mean the a**hole is a cheater. Some people believe I am an a**hole . And so, it goes, I think they are as well. It is a relative term. It is difficult to play a highly competitive game (like this one) and be civil at the same time. That is what "sportsmanship" is all about, though. Trying as hard as you can to beat someone in a sport or game, within the rules, and then shaking hands at the end and saying, "Good match".

[Gavrushka]

quote: Originally posted by Paulno1 on 05-18-2001 09:29 PM Please tell me saddam how do i cheat ? You have never played me and most people who play at the moment havent played me either, so how do you know i cheat? Its amusing though how you thrash someone and subsequently they call you a cheater lol. I wouldnt call that trick the secret to how i play though, thats a little bit of an exageration. I can always make it so i preduce faster than everyone else generally. So i preduce ships faster than the other player. More mines and bigger cities and more cities. The key to winning is to have more infrastructure than the other player, but what to I know. As well as spending your money wisely, having graneries is essential cant get big enough cities otherwise. A city should never reach a city size of 2 without one. But hat do i know lol play me and you will see, find a partner and play me 2 on 1, i wont even use the trick.

Paul, I recognise you must be a good player, I also think that you would not cheat if you said you weren't going to... you are too arrogant!!LOL... If you are really challenging two against one.... I think it would be impossible to win, if you were playing against two good players... (is that called arrogance by Proxy?? ) .... I think it would be good to take up your challenge...I am a mediocre player, and having played good players, I know the gap between me and them is not a chasm, and if you took on me and say Quinns, or Blackice you could not win, no matter HOW good or HOW lucky you got in the game - If you really want to, and for your points status I advise you against it, lets do it!!

For your benefit we could take a five turn save, so no one could argue you were cheating, and no returns to saved games - single monumental session..

So if you are up for it.....Lets do it, and if you really are that good, and can beat two players, then I'll never speak to you again...LOL...

[Fuzzball]

quote: Originally posted by Saddam on 05-17-2001 09:16 PM Paul you suck, you are only number one because you whacked hundred of people using that trick before any of us knew about it . Besides were not talking about LAN play, we talking about PBEM. Go to CTP-Multiplaying. I also know you are using a hacked executable you cheating whore [This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 17, 2001).]

Another hypocrite to throw petty accusations out of their own frustration and insecurity. I remember a game with you Saddam when you had about 35 to 40 cities the size of 1 and 2 mostly. The majority had nothing but caravans. You had used the ol' switcheroo for sure that time, and you have denied it to the hilt in all your posts here, and i've not gainsaid you until you began with your petty accusations.
There were many days also, when both Paul and I sat in the lobbies sharing this knowledge with newbies and experienced gamers alike. So it wasn't a secret cheat to anyone.

Now about this cracked exe rubbish. I heard tell that this little piece of useless crap was publicized by yourself, Saladino, Ivat and a few others. I heard you were all very upset also when you found it was a waste of time, hindering one's civ more than helping. You know what they say huh, about the guilty people pointing the finger.....It's a sad thing really.

I've had some serious disagreements with Paul before. We don't really get along so great because of some stupid things we've said to eachother before. But when it comes to this game, alot of people unjustly accuse him of silly rubbish like this because of their own inability to beat him on even ground.

Blackice, about the quotes from the gameleague rules etc...Dude, if that were the case, %99 of the players there would be banned. EVERYONE there has tried this on once or twice. Some because they fear their opponents may expand on trade faster, others out of hope that their opponent is unaware of it, and they can take advantage of the situation. About gameleague too.....I think only a couple of games have been played there ni the last few weeks...The games grow less and less. The talk grows more and more. The accusations are getting wilder. And there has been a lack of any administrative activity there for probably over 2 months now. Damn shame really.

I'm now moderating the Call to Power Forum at Gametalk. It's early days yet for this one....But I am trying to organize a few people to join me in setting up a new legitimate and active ladder site for individual ctp gamers and tribe gamers. Pbem and lobby play. Now this has only come about because gameleague has fallen apart, and although we get many new players in the lobbies and in pbem's nowadays, many are discouraged by all this rubbish on the gameleague front page, and talk of cheating etc. I'll need some honest people to help me moderate some games when we're up and running Blackice. This won't be pulling anyone away from Apolyton or Gameleague. It will be encouraging CTP gamers to know all these sites, and become a member of every single one of them. Still a free service for gamers, no worries there. But we want to sort out all this cheating rubbish with active game moderators and site administraion. And make it a gamer friendly site, where you can make some Pals as well as set up competitve games, via teams and individually. Any input is welcome at the moment, as I'm still brainstorming about the layout, setup, format, and the best way to implicate it all. I was planning on putting something like this on Civgaming.net's hosting facility quite a while ago, but sadly this still cannot be used.

Well, my time's about up for this week now. I'd encourage people to talk to me on my email if they would like to, as I still have to use a second isp to access apolyton nowadays. Kinda costly, and it can't be used for downloads.

Cheers all. Fuzz.
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 19, 2001).]

[quinns]

We think alike Gavrushka (that's a scary thought ). I was thinking exactly the same thing. What do you say Paulno1? Let's settle this once and for all.

Settings:
Game Name = First CTP Invitational
Internet game; deity level; raging hordes; regular size map; donut world; random map; all map settings at 50%; 3 settlers, 100 gold; restart until 3600 B.C., GL game; no rush buy/remove tricks; no other bug utilization tricks; speed cities -- 30 seconds max per city (no time pestering); 4 hour sessions; break every 2 hours.

Game will start at:
7:00 a.m. Auckland, New Zealand
12:00 p.m. (high noon ) Los Angeles, USA
3:00 p.m. Toronto, Canada
8:00 p.m. London, Great Britain

Proposed Players:
1. Paulno1 (New Zealand) -- Number 1 player on CTP GameLeague for several months.
2. Quinns (United States) -- Number 15 player on CTP PBEM Ratings, number 93 player on CTP GameLeague (new to GameLeague) .
3. Blackice (Canada) -- Number 24 player on CTP Gameleague, (new to CTP PBEM).
4. Gavrushka (United Kingdom) -- Number 92 player on CTP Gameleague (new to GameLeague).
5. (One more player... Mobius [number 1 player on CTP PBEM], or Saddam, or Fuzzball ??)

One moderator (any volunteers?)

If agreed to by all players, pick a Saturday or Sunday. I am available next Saturday, May 26 at noon PDT.

"Let's get ready to rumble!"

[This message has been edited by quinns (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Fuzzball]

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS on 05-18-2001 10:51 PM As for 'assuming' everyone knows - thats just a euphemism for 'taking advantage for anyone who does not know'... To suggest the bug was intentional is frankly preposterous and I can't believe some of the people here are trying to add credibility to what is CHEATING! I spend too much of my time on this game without having to worry about cheats! I agree with St Jon that there are 'grey areas' such as the switching production resources in 'mid flow', however that's the way the game has been designed and it is a good way to hide the fact that you're building a wonder (start with big prod items like hospitals or cathedrals b4 switching)... [This message has been edited by MOBIUS (edited May 18, 2001).]

Assuming everyone knows...it's not far from the truth in multiplayer lobbies, especially when you've shared the information with at least 100 internet players in lobbies before. One person tells another, tells another, tells another. If I told soooo many people, how many had they shared this with also? Maybe not "everyone" knew about it. Maybe it was wrong to assume such. But don't be judging me to be one to take advantage of people. I fear there are many here pretending ingnorance.

You spend so much time on this game yet you never found a wrinkle? Weird.

These grey areas are the way the game was designed...this is what many have argued in contradiction to your opinion. Integrity lies where?

It's all a silly argument really. Give it up people. If you didn't know before, you do now. Let's get back to playing. Point the finger. Throw around your petty accusations all of you. This is what is destroying gameplay. Not people openly sharing information they feel may be of benefit to others.

I don't care if you take one side or the other here. Or if you're completely indifferent to the whole affair. I came to play. Anyone for a game?

[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Solver]

Umm... isn't Internet play getting as popular as PBEM?

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

[quinns]

quote: Originally posted by Fuzzball on 05-19-2001 09:56 AMIt's all a silly argument really. Give it up people. If you didn't know before, you do now. Let's get back to playing. Point the finger. Throw around your petty accusations all of you. This is what is destroying gameplay. Not people openly sharing information they feel may be of benefit to others. [This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 19, 2001).]

Who are you talking to Fuzzball? There are TWO people, (out of about 20 people), on this thread who called Paul a cheater. NOT EVERYONE. I would suggest you direct you global comments to those individuals, and not at ALL OF US. Gavrushka and I have been trying to settle this thing, and you want to continue to throw fuel on the fire by attacking ALL OF US.

As far as a game goes, I suggest you join us in the above mentioned internet game. Let's ALL calm down and settle this thing with a fair game.

[Gavrushka]

quote: Originally posted by Solver on 05-19-2001 10:07 AM Umm... isn't Internet play getting as popular as PBEM?

Solver.....you could ban us all !

You could force us all to swear allegiance to the PBEM Flag!!

I think everyone still plays PBEM (I certainly do) It is just Multiplaying seems to stir up a lot of passion!!

Quinns..... great I am available for the Grudge Match of the century!LOL

[quinns]

LOL Gavrushka! Yes Solver, you have the POWER to do so! This isn't about which is better, PBEM or Internet play. Both are good. It just depends how much "leisure" time you have. There is no way that some people can afford to play an Internet game. It is very time consuming. But that's not to say PBEM is better, just different.

[Solver]

Well said Gavrushka.
Well, I couldn't afford an Internet game, I think. For example, 3 hours online here would cost me over 10$, don't love that. And, interruption is too high. Next, I don't want to be pressed by the time that I have for my turns.
Shamely, we can't rate those Internet games.

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

[quinns]

Actually, Solver... now that you mention it, we COULD rate the internet games. As long as the VOLUME of reported games remains below about 10 per week, I could handle the data entry. (If it goes beyond this volume level, maybe somebody could create the programming interface to do this. I would contribute 20 megabytes of space on my hosted www.worldtennisratings.com website, if someone was willing to do it.)

We would handle it the same way as PBEM game ratings with some changes, of course:

CTP Internet Game Rankings Incorporation
1) There would be only one rating for player, i.e. it would turn into "CTP Ratings" instead of "CTP PBEM Ratings".
2) There would be no *9 turn ratings. Instead, the internet game would be ranked in reverse order of elimination, (or any other agreed upon victory conditions).
3) All CTP rated games would permit no use of "bug tricks" or any other kind of misuse of the intended game rules.
4) (Other rules, I'm sure, ... just can't think of them now.)

[Fuzzball]

Well now....It appears the argument grows even more ridiculous. A solution eh? No **** sherlock. Anyone else want to acknowledge they knew about this? Even if you didn't use it, even if you can legitimately kick ass in this game, you'll be labelled a cheater....So come on people, feel free to share any information with us, we'd love to ****ing hear it.
The cracked exe Saddam refers to was hosted on the warez site. Alot of fools tried it on I hear, and ended up reinstalling after I'm sure.
Whoops, forgot why I came here for a sec. Oh, that's right. I came to play a game. "A game for ****'s sake".