Trick or Cheat?

[Fuzzball]

Yankee Yankee Yaaankeee. Na na nana naaaaaaa.
By the way. For any Canadians out there, you sound like Yankee's too. hehehe.
(I knew I'd get some funny responses to the Yankee thing. Who's gonna take the Canadian bait?)

[Paulno1]

Whats the problem with the trick
I use it yes and haven't played anyone that does not use it. Ever since i worked out how to use it, ive told everyone that i talk too in the lobbies pretty much. Using it to buy a tank for 4000 gold is just stupid, how much money do you have at that part of the game maybe 10000 gold thats 2 tanks that is not going to help you at all. The trick only helps at the beginning to get you your 20 or 40 cities after that i build my graneries. Only other use for the trick is to get a caravan for the price of a market. Cant use it too buy modern units is too expensive. By then you should be building a tank at least at 3 turns. So 2 tanks in 1 turn each aint going to help anyway. If you are good you should be building the tank at 1 turn anyway.

Personally i think the trick is great for the game speeds up the game considerbly. IF you are half smart you will have worked out that the biggest problem with the game is that it takes so long. Most people don't have the time. Hence the reason that not a lot of people play it, compared to other faster games.

The trick helps to reduce the land advantage. If you have a forest river you can build settlers at 8 turns, that is as fast as you grow. If the other player doesn't have a river then he is going to have a lot of trouble beating you. With the trick he is going to be able to get a settler a lot faster then otherwise, which helps to reduce the advantage of the river.
With a city on a forest then it only speeds it up by about 2 or 3 turns.

BY THE WAY ZERATUL DOES USE THE TRICK. AT LEAST IN ALL THE GAMES HES PLAYED AGAINST ME. It is very easy too tell if the trick is being used. No cities get above 1 in the beginning. Cause you use the trick so that you get a settler every time you are about to go up to 2. The trick only helps at the start i cant over emphasize that enough. You have to build graneries after you got all your settlers otherwise your just stupid. You will not grow fast enough.
It is only a cheat if you used it and didnt tell your opponent about it.
i tell everyone about it. I dont generally play newbies anyway. If you dont like me using the trick thats fine dont play me. The trick show up obviously on the graph at the start. Graph goes up and down very obviously.

PS i love the game lol
Paul soon to be number 1 player in world again lol number 2 is just wrong lol Game league. Got to number 1 actually before i used the trick too. I am the one who told most poeple about the trick.

[faded glory]

Paul you suck, you are only number one because you whacked hundred of people using that trick before any of us knew about it . Besides were not talking about LAN play, we talking about PBEM. Go to CTP-Multiplaying.

I also know you are using a hacked executable you cheating whore
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 17, 2001).]

[Swissy]

Anything that is built into the game, even bugs, cannot be considered cheating. It is a resource, available to all players. Cheating would be altering the game files to give yourself an advantage unavailable to other players. As far as to limiting the effects, don't modify the starting gold. You can't pay the 300+ gold it will take to rush that granary when your city hits pop2, if you only started with 100 gold. The reason the trick works in online games is most games start with 1000+ gold, 4+ settlers, and good at or near max.

[Gavrushka]

I don't think Saddam, you should be so harsh against Paul - If I understand right from a conversation with him last night, anyone he plays against is aware of the cheat. It is up to his past competitors to say otherwise - Understand that certain people have been using this for a long time, and have gone very high up the Game Ladder as a result.

I now feel an extreme reluctance to play against new people, there is a culture of mistrust that is springing up in the game, and that is a shame... All I can say is this -

Paul has come forward and stated has used what we know as a cheat, it is up to any individual wanting to play him as to how they feel about that - But bare in mind he volunteered this information, and I like to think that as a result he is basically honest - Zeratul must speak for himself, as must all other players.

I think a new Post should be started, as mentioned by someone else - Anyone agreeing not to switch production under a Rush Buy should post their name there, so that people can see who, in theory, will not use the cheat.

I think Rush buy is an essential element of the game, but not with a production change after - so I feel a Mod to Rushbuy Costs is unacceptable - The solution has to be a Patch which is going to disable switching after Rushbuy - Which I guess is nigh on impossible - That Patch should also be incompatable with the none patched version..

We are a cross section of Society, some people are going to claim they won't cheat, and they will, we will end up with a situation where we dispute any game where the opponents powergraph is much higher than our own, a culture of mistrust would spring up.

There is only one solution at present and it absolutely stinks..... and that would be for everyone to cheat.... But personally I think I would just rather get thrashed, and anyone that cheats against me, I hope you understand your victories are hollow.

[Gavrushka]

quote: Originally posted by Swissy on 05-18-2001 12:44 AM Anything that is built into the game, even bugs, cannot be considered cheating. It is a resource, available to all players. Cheating would be altering the game files to give yourself an advantage unavailable to other players. As far as to limiting the effects, don't modify the starting gold. You can't pay the 300+ gold it will take to rush that granary when your city hits pop2, if you only started with 100 gold. The reason the trick works in online games is most games start with 1000+ gold, 4+ settlers, and good at or near max.

Swissy, please understand that an individuals opinion as to whether or not it is a cheat are irrelevent - IF you agree not to do this AND you do it (the only reason this is used is because it is advantageous) then you are cheating, any games you have previously used this CANNOT be considered cheating, it could be considered unfair, unsportsmanlike, but I think it would be harsh to consider it cheating.....I know many people would not agree with me...

But Swissy if you were asked not to use this in a game by your opponent, would you agree?

[Keygen]

quote: Originally posted by Swissy on 05-18-2001 12:44 AM Anything that is built into the game, even bugs, cannot be considered cheating. It is a resource, available to all players. Cheating would be altering the game files to give yourself an advantage unavailable to other players. As far as to limiting the effects, don't modify the starting gold. You can't pay the 300+ gold it will take to rush that granary when your city hits pop2, if you only started with 100 gold. The reason the trick works in online games is most games start with 1000+ gold, 4+ settlers, and good at or near max.

Of cource it's a cheat. That's why it is a bug. Because the game wasn't designed to do so! And your definition of cheating by taking advantage of something that isn't available to other is not correct. Because all players know how to open another player's turn and take a look yet it is a cheat to do so!

[Immortal Wombat]

quote: Originally posted by Keygen on 05-18-2001 04:47 AM Of course it's a cheat. That's why it is a bug. Because the game wasn't designed to do so!

I think the crux of the matter lies in the truth of that statement. How do you know it wasn't supposed to?. Admittedly Activision aren't the best at putting 100% effort into debugging, but this feature was present in Civ2, and surely someone at Activision must have played Civ2? It is possible that the designers knew this was possible, but deliberatly left it in, so people can discover and use it.

[blackice]

Is it cheating to use it in online Game League Games?

Let's look at the facts, here are the rules of Game League. Rules you have agreed to when you signed up. You can find them here:
http://gameleague.megaultra.com/feat...faq/cheat.php3

FAQ on Cheating

Can I use bugs in the game to help myself or others?
No.

That I guess is self-explanatory what part of the rule is hard to understand?
Conclusion: USING BUGS IN GAME LEAGUE IS CHEATING PERIOD. Lets move on to the next page you can find that here:
http://gameleague.megaultra.com/feat...s/conduct.php3

II. CONDUCT

A. Cheating is strictly prohibited.
D. Deceiving other members, and especially admins, is illegal.
E. Be polite. Please. (Some forget this one a lot )

I guess (A.) says it all and since using bugs is cheating it takes no guesswork does it.

(D.) Is interesting, is it deceiving to use a known bug (To a Few) and not tell your opponent before the game begins? IMO of course it is, again it takes no guess work.

So by reading these Facts and Rules YOU AGREED TO WHEN YOU SIGNED ON TO GAME LEAGUE MEANS TO USE THIS BUG IS CHEATING PERIOD. Puts a whole new light on the Game League standings does it not. What a mess for Kwang and the Administrators if all people like me who save their saved game files (All of them ) submitted them now with a dispute about the win, personally I have quite a few hummmmm games. lol. I would assume we would see radical changes to the rankings chart.
Rule of thumb, too much, too many, too fast.

To summarize this In Game League it is CHEATING there is no guesswork necessary the rules are very clearly defined, here in PBEM we do not have a rule yet. So to those that still use this in Game league and believe it is part of the game try again YOU ARE CHEATING.It is clearly defined in the rules is it not? Personally I don't see any reason why you can not start a game where all players agree to use the bug in PBEM. That must be stated in the rules of the game before you agree to play it. In all other games it should be considered a CHEAT period. I suggest we keep at least three saved game files in each game it should be a rule. If you suspect someone of exploiting this bug, notify the game moderator of it. Co-operate with the moderator if you are asked for your game files. Lets nip this in the bud so we can get on with fair competitive fun games. Fianally IMO we should respect anyone that comes forward and says they use the bug.

Yes you have to love this game



[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 18, 2001).]

[blackice]

quote: Originally posted by Saddam on 05-17-2001 09:16 PM Paul you suck, you are only number one because you whacked hundred of people using that trick before any of us knew about it . Besides were not talking about LAN play, we talking about PBEM. Go to CTP-Multiplaying. I also know you are using a hacked executable you cheating whore [This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 17, 2001).]

I quoted this reluctantly as IMO there are other ways to get one's message accross. No offence Saddam

Can you explain the hacked executable? What is it you are refering to?

[Paulno1]

By the way who do you think told Quinns about the trick
Me of cause lololol. IVe told everyone ive seen since i was aware that some people did not know about it. Its pretty simple idea same thing worked in civ 1, im amazed that other peopel werent aware of it . In civ 2 they got ride of the trick where they penalized tou 50 % for changing production. Why did they not do the same in ctp1 im not sure.
I actually made it too number 1 before i actually used the trick. If you look at all the players ive got my points from recently you will see that they are all very experienced players who all use the trick. The trick is better for the game is the simple fact. With or with out the trick i can still beat everyone that plays, if you dont beleive me play me and see and i wont use the trick.
The only way i can see it being a cheat is if the other player is not aware of it, ive never denied using it. PS what the f**k are you on about SADAM? What the hell is a hacked thing your on about? Would you need to host for that ? If you had ever played me you would notice i dont host anymore. I dont need the host advantage and i hate having to save. Plus my computer is too slow. I didnt lose a game for 7 months because i am a very good player and have played this game far too much hehe.
kINDA IRONIC THAT I STARTED ALL THIS **** LOL.
I like the trick cause it speeds the game up at the start and reduces the land advantage that one player all ways gets.
PS SADAM ITS NOT MY FAULT YOUR WIFE WANTS TO PAY FOR IT (-:.

[St Jon]

quote: Originally posted by Swissy on 05-18-2001 12:44 AM Anything that is built into the game, even bugs, cannot be considered cheating. It is a resource, available to all players. Cheating would be altering the game files to give yourself an advantage unavailable to other players. As far as to limiting the effects, don't modify the starting gold. You can't pay the 300+ gold it will take to rush that granary when your city hits pop2, if you only started with 100 gold. The reason the trick works in online games is most games start with 1000+ gold, 4+ settlers, and good at or near max.

I am not sure that is really true. I also play SMAC MP and many bugs specific to PBEM come into effect that are never encountered against the AI. Only one I know of is ever allowed and then only when specifically stated PRIOR to Game Start. It is impossible to directly compare the two Games as the Turns are P/W protected in SMAC, something that eliminates the most obvious cheat, and other Players are advised if the Turn is Played more than once. There are however 'grey areas' which cannot have been deliberated incorporated into the Game by the designers but are still commonly used, eg deliberately continuing to build an already constructed Wonder in anticipation of achieving the correct Tech to switch to a more desirable one with a massive head start. Is that a Trick or a Cheat?

[Keygen]

quote: Originally posted by St Jon on 05-18-2001 07:48 AM There are however 'grey areas' which cannot have been deliberated incorporated into the Game by the designers but are still commonly used, eg deliberately continuing to build an already constructed Wonder in anticipation of achieving the correct Tech to switch to a more desirable one with a massive head start. Is that a Trick or a Cheat?

The specific feature isn't exactly similar to the specific CTP bug.
The only thing you gain is that nobody knows which secret project you are constructing after the switch. You don't gain time or energy (gold) by rushing buy.
Here you do gain gold or time.
Besides in SMAC your opponents know that you are building a secret project while in CTP your opponents don't.

But even this trick in SMAC might be a form of cheating anyway.

[Solver]

Keygen,
In CtP your opponents know it. They get a message that Solver of the Jewish has started building the Wormhole Sensor in 3000 B.C.

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

[faded glory]

quote: Originally posted by Paulno1 on 05-18-2001 07:34 AM PS what the f**k are you on about SADAM

Dont play dumb , everyone (well almost everyone) knows you have it. Everyone talks abotu your cheating in the lobby when you are playing. Everyone tends to agree, You Cheat


[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 18, 2001).]