Trick or Cheat?

[faded glory]

Fuzz, I dont want my buildings costing 20,000 gold. I would like the oppurtunity to rush buy granary's in the begining

[Fuzzball]

quote: Originally posted by blackice on 05-15-2001 10:07 AM As soon as this player tells me the other cheats I will post them here, as yet I have heard nothing. There was one about rush buying large fisheries anyone know about it?

Many players refer to the faster upgrading of smaller fisheries to larger as a cheat. It works with anything you want to upgrade though, and I don't really see it as a cheat. The reason being, you spend extra production points anyway. Some people I know call it a "trick" or a "cheat" simply because you get the upgraded fishery, farm, or mine in one turn, as opposed to two. To get the upgraded facility in one turn though, you have to build it on top of the other facility. So if I built a Large fishery on top of a net, it would be complete in one turn. This also goes for a mine to an advanced mine or an advanced farm and vice versa. Personally I don't view this as a "trick" or a "cheat" and laughed when people tried to secretly show me this new "trick". You have to spend an extra %50 production to accomplish this anyway, as you are upgrading an existing facility. It has it's uses in tight spaces though.

[berXpert]

I read every one of you guys, but to me it's both: a trick and a cheat.

I was using this trick since I discovered after a long time of single playing months ago (years?!). I said is a trick if you play with out cheating at the beggining of the game. When you start a new game you have only 1 settler and NO money, so the only way you have to "rush buy-change" is hard working or get lucky and find some gold inside a ruin (wich never is greater to 500) or a friendly civ send you a money gift.

In the early stage of the game you have 15 or 25 gold to break into maintenance, military and science, so the savings are 5 or less each turn then you need to wait 200 turns to get 1000 for a "rb-c", obviously when you civ grow you have more money but never before 40 turn (year 2000 bC).

This is what I do when I find gold (let it 500) in a ruin and I wanted to build a caravan (17 turns 4500 for rush buy): I put a temple (5 turns 560) and rush buy it! then quit and let the caravan end for 12 turns. In this way I get an accelerated building but let my money go to 0 again. The same to get a military unit but you never have enough money to "r b-c" in each city every turn just 1 city 1 stuff when an extraordinary money event happen.

By the middle game you have more money but also have more power to build stuff so you don't care about "r b-c" a tank when you need 2 turns to comple it, it's more waste of time clicking here and there, and by that time there are not more "cheaper" buildings to get this trick to work!

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But if we cheat since the begining, like all accelerated starts for PBEM or Internet games, when you have more settlers and A LOT OF MONEY, oviously the trick is converted into cheat until all that money is gone, after that it become a trick again.

Let me put an example with the Keygen Mod: 3 settlers 10,000 gold, 3 caravans, the settlers founded before turn 5 gives extra settler and grow to city 3 and 2. What we have here is a game like one you must have at turn 50 or 60 in a normal game but with much money.

You can use that 10,000 to rush buy a wonder, some buildings or units, or use the trick to get more units, but all that money must be spend, if not wich is the meaning to have that amount of gold? Personally I used it!

I like to play more over science than war, so I rush buy buildings to get more money or science like marketplaces, banks, academies. Some times I help my cities to build settlers but not buying graners ('coz you are wasting one production turn in that city) but temples and "r b-c" so the settler is finished in the next 3 or 4 turns (not the 9 or 11)

And by the turn 20 I have set all my money gone to 0, now all the money I can get will be used (maybe) to the "r b-c" trick or to rush buy more banks I don't know but it's a trick again and the cheat is over. Maybe those 20 turns where cheated but the turn 0 also was cheat by using the Mod.

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Resume:

If you said this is a cheat then also is a cheat in PBEM remain outside a ruin that get barbarians and replay the turn, or don't enter into the ruins that gives you a military unit until you get more advances that will give you a better unit, i.e. if I enter now I get a Samurai, if wait for 5 advances give me a Cavalery, other 5 maybe a Fascist and other 10 a marine, etc.

What I said is if you don't like this trick - cheat then STOP using accelerated starts and when playing by Internet don't give to your selfs money, only settlers that's all. If any one have lucky and find some gold and use this trick-cheat I don't care 'coz is the same that when you find an advance in a ruin (like to rush buy an advance from 5 to 9 turns) or a unit (imagine a cavalery from 17 turns).

I'll continue using this guys, sorry, but to me is not a cheat. If any one want me out of their games tell me now, I don't care to quit 'coz I can continue playing alone or with other players that know this trick and use it to get a better game. But all of you are still using tricks right now in the middle of your strategies, think about it

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BTW In CTP 2 this trick is fixed if you rush buy you can't change it or cancel it. In Civ II advanced levels there are a pennaltie when swithching between units and buildings.

[This message has been edited by berXpert (edited May 15, 2001).]

[blackice]

"Wow ICE, you can use this shorten production length?"

What do you mean? if you are refering to switching to settler no it does not shorten production. Correct me if I am wrong but is not the production time for settler and granary the same at the begining? I have noticed it is. If the need arises where I have found a good spot to settle or if another civ. is close by and I want a city there in a hurry I change the building que. So I don't get what you mean?

There are lots of reasons for people to be ahead in the power graph other than this, rush buying graneries is one.

That explains a lot berxpert thanks for the honesty

But you have to agree that if it is ruled as a cheat, then you would have to abide by the rules. I don't think anyone is going to tell you to leave, but you would have to honor an agreement not to use it if that is decided. At that point It would be up to you to stop playing here or create pbem games where it is allowed to be used. But for sure stop doing it in exsisting games. I mean if you win exploting a bug which gives you an edge over other players is it a true test of skill? IMO no sorry but the win is hollow, shallow. Tell you what we can have a game using the exploit to test your real skill?

This shows the need to decide, until it can be shown in the game files, we have to decide as a gentleman and woman to allow it or not. Then we simply have to go by the cyber handshake honor system until it is fixed or it can be shown, proven to be seen in the game files. So we have to decide to use it or not.

IMO it takes away from the game trick-treat who cares imbalances the game you bet it does.

Should it be put to a vote?

And no Quinns I have not heard from Kwang
Thanks Fuzzy
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 15, 2001).]

[faded glory]

No, when you rush buy a 800 dollar granary. Then switch to a settler and remove the granary from the building queue. You will notice you just bought a settler for 800 dollars ...Supposedly it reduces production too on a unit too. but the granary will never get built....thus your city will be pathetic size.

[Solver]

Amazing number of responses, more than 20 in 13 hours. This will soon be posted to the CtP news section at http://apolyton.net/ctp ,probably in a few hours. Really, this is a cheat, and in PBEMs, that should not be allowed, of course.

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Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

[Fuzzball]

If you remain in Theocracy, regardless of the era, the ol' rush buy switcheroo is still effective. The reason being, that in Theo, the building cost is minimal in comparison to unit cost. Also, using this rush buy switcheroo CAN seriously disadvantage some in competitive games.
For example: Someone playing the modlite scenario with the 10k start, lucky enough to start with Engineering Tech....Engineering enables colliseums, which take almost as long to build as some Wonders in the Ancient Age. But a colliseum costs about $2000, as opposed to wonders which cost about $40000 in the Ancient Age.....So if someone used the ol' switcheroo with a colliseum and an an Ancient Wonder, it would be quite effective. This could be accomplished in later ages also with many units/buildings depending on the government.
The best way to limit this, is as Berxpert alreay mentioned, to limit the starting amount of gold. This trick is the reason for alot of resynchronizing and faulty connections in multiplayer online games. As the data is changing so fast that the host computer is constantly sending updated information to the players games. The trick itself doesn't worry me. I've learnt to deal with the disadvantage it can put you in most of the time. I find the resynchronizing and connection problems created in multiplayer games the most frustrating part. Which is why I prefer to limit the gold in all my games.
I do like Keygen's modlite and accelerated start alot though for Pbem games. So perhaps if building and unit costs were made equal, and the cost of wonders made impossible, this trick could be rendered useless.
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]

[Solver]

Made public announcement at http://apolyton.net/ctp , and this is surely a cheat. Watch out of this, and I don't think more discussion is needed. Still, this is the most intensive thread ever, IIRC.

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Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

[blackice]

Just one thing if I may Solver.

It seems for the most part we all agree not to use this exploit kool I for one will not.

I see no reason not to start new games that use it in the rules if all who play in that game agree, for those who have the need?

And lastly lets get these games going, like today




You have to love this game
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 16, 2001).]

[quinns]

quote: Originally posted by jpww on 05-15-2001 09:24 PM Are you happy now, Quinns?????

Very.

(Darn foreigners think all Americans are "YANKEES". Duh. Try calling someone from Georgia, a "yankee"! I ain't no Damn Yankee! )

[quinns]

quote: Originally posted by bj on 05-15-2001 10:55 PM Different game but still applicable, you might want a quick glance over this: http://www.planetquake.com/features/...-05-13_a.shtml

Thanks bj, but that article misses the main reason for breaking a cheat like this to the public, and that is, to level the playing field . This bug was already in widespread use in the internet multiplayer CTP arena, by many players. But many players were not aware of it. Publicizing the bug helps to make all people aware that this thing exists. In this way, actions can be taken to level the game out and make it truly "competitive" again -- and not this "I know a secret" business that exists with this bug kept in the dark.

[Boney]

I agree that this is a cheat. The non-usage of such cheats has to be agreed upon before playing. I have found that the majority of multiplayers are quite honourable, and would abide by pre-agreed rules. Banning those who cheat would probably be effective in the long term, but who would like to accuse fellow players of cheating, and also have the proof. I am confident that vast majority of players would never consider using this cheat, especially after seeing the reaction to this post.

As to the Yankee thing generalizations are pretty normal, for most Northerners in England anyone South of Birmingham is a Cockney. Just as for most Asians anyone from the UK is English, this really pisses off many Scots.

[blackice]

Yes Quinns I totally agree

While that was a great post BJ, really. They made very strong points some very valid points but I have to agree with Quinns on this one. The hush, hush is simply done so that a few players can have an edge but truely they have NO bragging rights, none what so ever. This not only cheats themself of a truely great gaming experience but cheats others of the same. It also I believe stunts the growth of League members.

By posting the exploit and leveling the playing field you can once again somewhat enjoy an even playing field and test your skills against other players. As Quinns points out it also brings the gaming community together to come up with ways of countering the exploit. And the fact that people are aware of it allows the question to be asked "Are we playing with the exploit or not". If they are unaware of it send them here open and up front. Fuzzy and few have pointed out what to look for in a game this is being used in great, more awareness all of this helps. Save games more often, share saved game files on and on there are ways around this. The most important is it is in the open now.

I say post'em if you got them if you are honest, it also may be one of reasons why CTP is the only game that no one has posted strategies for in the strategy section lol. Really if one was honest submit it as a strategy if that is what you believe it to be. I have no problem telling people how I do things in the game, the more they learn the more I learn. This results in more intense games, better competion and one heck of a good time After all is that not why we play games for the fun and mental challenge, I do.

Hopefully it will get fixed and once again we can play it in it's pure form and I don't have to say hummmm anymore

Let's face it, this is one of the best games ever made period.

IMO

You have to love this game



[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 16, 2001).]

[Keygen]

quote: Originally posted by quinns on 05-16-2001 09:58 AM Very. (Darn foreigners think all Americans are "YANKEES". Duh. Try calling someone from Georgia, a "yankee"! I ain't no Damn Yankee! )

OK gringo .


But those Yankees really kicked the butts of these "southern comfort" guys in the civil war .

[This message has been edited by Keygen (edited May 16, 2001).]

[faded glory]

I too, despise being called a "yankee". I am a Reb , I have always and will forever be a Southern Separatist !


'The South will rise again'
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 16, 2001).]